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Post by mattpeto on Jun 15, 2015 20:01:21 GMT
One thing that bothered me is that no one except Melisandre will ever know what happened. Davos won't know for sure that she burned Shireen, though I bet he will suspect as much. I wonder what will happen when he presses her for details, or if that will even happen in the short term, as I expect everything at the Wall to be in major upheaval following Jon's stabbing. I also wonder how long the remaining NW will allow her to stay there. Things are going to be pretty chaotic at the wall for a bit considering what just happened and there's no clear cut leader. We assume Thorne will take over but he's not loved by Tormund or the wildlings so that's a big problem. Melisandre can only stay at the wall if she brings Jon back and even then it's uncertain how she's going to be received. With Davos there - there's a good chance she dies - but whether that's by his doing or her own, or someone else is anybody's guess. I think she has important things to do next season but no clue what. ^^^^ There were a ton of deserters, Davos will find out. I agree - there's little way she's going to be able to lie about what happened to Shireen. Some of Stannis' own men were running away in that huge overview scene where the much larger Bolton army was swallowing them up. The men who deserted him before the battle will probably have a lot to say about the terrible things that happened before they left. I never wanted to punch anyone in the face as much as this bitch. And she actually dared looking apologetic to Davos. I hope she dies a slow painful death. She did look somewhat apologetic in that look she gave him - though it was somewhat hard to read. Pain, disappointment, defeat, but was there guilt there? I don't know yet if that's just mistaken emotions or supposed to throw people off and think she's had a change of heart. We won't know until we see what she's going to do next season and what she has to say for her terrible mistakes. I don't think she's long for this world next season to be honest. She has important things to do but I almost get the feeling she's going to be a sacrifice herself somehow - to atone for burning Shireen which was pointless and wrong. She has to save Jon. Either that or the the showrunners are trolling us again with her return to the Wall. BTW - Assuming Jon is out of the picture at the Wall, I hope Ed gets out of there and the whole fuckin' Wall comes down. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 20:23:53 GMT
She never left the wall in the books, so having her return isn't really trolling, is it? The only reason they had her go with Stannis was to wrap up his story and fast forward bits we probably don't know about in TWOW anyways and that's still pretty shocking. It felt awkward on the show but we don't know the whole picture and I guess they did the best they could with the material in a way that makes any sense at all given this is all new territory. Her returning to the wall just puts her back in the place she was when Jon's stabbed in the book.
There is strong magic tied to the wall, so unless that horn is a real thing, I don't see it falling. I do see the Night's Watch dissolving and changing though once the White Walkers are there.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 20:36:15 GMT
Posting pertinent to Melisandre carried over from 5.10 discussion
33 minutes ago izzue said:In retrospect, I do see a purpose in Brienne's killing Stannis (if indeed, she followed through with it. I think he's dead, but I also remember in early Dorne when Jaime awoke to Bronn's sword coming down right next to his head, so - ? We don't ever know what Martin - or D & D - will do.) Anyway, Brienne asked specifically if he killed Renly using blood magic, and he said Yes. We saw BM first with Mirri Maz Duur, then with the Shadowbaby, and probably (?) with several of the leeches. Mel's next attempt, with Shireen, failed. Thoros of Myr didn't use BM, did he? So what I'm getting at is that BM may possibly be a sort of 'voodoo', for lack of a better analogy, separate from but often confused with R'hllor. When Jaqen first approached Arya with the need for him to take three lives for the ones she spared, I'm thinking he referred specifically to The Red God, not the Multi-faced God, and although the deaths of course shed blood, it doesn't seem the same to me as the other examples of BM we've seen. I suppose I'm splitting hairs and not entirely sure that there's a significant point here, but I'm thinking Mel could possibly be intertwining blood magic with R'hllor's directives and doing so incorrectly. I'm just wondering if it could have some significance in Mel's arc later on. Perhaps they are one and the same - that would have specific implications, too (i.e. if she resurrects Jon, as I think she will, whose blood will she use?) Perhaps Brienne's only purpose was to underscore that there've been 3 family deaths in all that have resulted from BM. I am anxious to find out what the fallout at The Wall will be following Jon's stabbing. As someone else posted, there can't be that many NW left, and I don't think every single one of them hated Jon, though I could of course be wrong. But at any rate, there's Davos - and Mel, much as I hate her - Tormund, Wun Wun, and other wildlings who would clearly be dead if it weren't for Jon. And I'm anxious to see how long it takes the WW to become a 1:1 threat again. Is this the ending of the NW as we've known it? Envie said:The confusion about blood magic vs. true R'hllor light magic is one I've often wondered about and we could fill an entire thread of it's own about it (I suppose we could use the Melisandre post I made) if you want to talk about it in more detail outside the general episode discussion.  Ever since I read the books, I've had questions about why some of the magic works one way but not other ways. Why did blood magic work so badly for MMD bringing Drogo back? Was that her intention or just how it went? She's not a R'hllor priestess so clearly it's not about R'hllor ... which brings up the question then - is Melisandre really a R'hllor priestess at all? Thoros of Myr is and he brought people back to life without blood magic and without death. Beric passed it on to Catelyn but that gave away his own immortality to do so. Blood magic has not really worked for Melisandre. The only thing that worked really in her favor for true magic was the shadow-baby assassin and she didn't sacrifice anyone to get that. izzue said: I do think it diverges into a separate Melisandra thread, too. So, is it legit for me to just copy and paste this post into that thread? I think I'll try it. Your response also triggered for me what's fresh in our minds from 5.10 in the Arya arc - some 'gifts' are sanctioned, some are not. Perhaps that's the major flaw with Mel's 'work' - perhaps it wasn't 'sanctioned'. Or, like you say, perhaps she's not a R'hllor priestess after all.
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Post by janicia on Jun 15, 2015 22:51:23 GMT
I doubt Melisandre dies in early season 6. She's had several visions that imply she has a decently long future ahead of her - of walking on the walls of Winterfell, of seeing Arya again, of serving Azor Ahai. And she is hard to kill - poison did nothing to her, cold doesn't hurt her. I think she sticks with Jon. But they might go dormant for a while.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 0:28:40 GMT
^^^^ There were a ton of deserters, Davos will find out. You're exactly right. I was just in my "No survivors! All is lost!" mode.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 5:00:37 GMT
izzue - To continue our great R'hllor discussion in regards to Melisandre: I tend to think what you said about the Many-Faced-God has some merit and may end up playing a part in this whole thing. In the House of Black and White, we learned that tributes to all of the various Gods are represented and respected. Death is the ruler of them all and the one constant variable tying mortal men's beliefs together. But like religion in our real world cultures - it's often interpreted much differently by differing beliefs and social rules and moral values. There's definitely some misinterpretation going on with R'hllor by Melisandre. Being from Asshai, where blood magic and shadow magic are common, it's speculated that she incorporates a lot of sorcery into her religious practice. I tend to think her 'success' so far should be attributed to dark sorcery and not with R'hllor at all. Mirri Maz Duur also studied in Asshai, that's how she knew the blood magic to use on Drogo and Dany. It's dark magic in my opinion, the opposite of the light of R'hllor Melisandre convinces everyone is what casts the shadows. I think that's bunkum. Melisandre is a shadow-binder and they use dark sorcery. Also, lets remember that it's long been suspected Melisandre is not who she appears to be. She shows no aging, no reaction to cold and heat, never seems to sleep or eat or show human needs like others. To me, she is more like a vampire, immortal and casting an glamour or illusion to make herself appear as she does. It's long been speculated that ruby she wears (which glows in the books but not on the show) is part of her illusion. If it were to be removed, we might see who Melisandre really is.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 5:06:07 GMT
She did look somewhat apologetic in that look she gave him - though it was somewhat hard to read. Pain, disappointment, defeat, but was there guilt there? I don't know yet if that's just mistaken emotions or supposed to throw people off and think she's had a change of heart. We won't know until we see what she's going to do next season and what she has to say for her terrible mistakes. I don't think she's long for this world next season to be honest. She has important things to do but I almost get the feeling she's going to be a sacrifice herself somehow - to atone for burning Shireen which was pointless and wrong. She still has to run into Arya remember.  And walk the walls of WF. So she'll be around for THAT long at least. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 5:08:20 GMT
I doubt Melisandre dies in early season 6. She's had several visions that imply she has a decently long future ahead of her - of walking on the walls of Winterfell, of seeing Arya again, of serving Azor Ahai. And she is hard to kill - poison did nothing to her, cold doesn't hurt her. I think she sticks with Jon. But they might go dormant for a while. Shit, you beat me to the punch six hours ago.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 5:10:27 GMT
I doubt Melisandre dies in early season 6. She's had several visions that imply she has a decently long future ahead of her - of walking on the walls of Winterfell, of seeing Arya again, of serving Azor Ahai. And she is hard to kill - poison did nothing to her, cold doesn't hurt her. I think she sticks with Jon. But they might go dormant for a while. Shit, you beat me to the punch six hours ago. Oh I'm not saying they'll off her right away - I did agree she has important roles to play in the future of the story. I do get the feeling though that her jig will be up if it's ever revealed she's a shadowbinder / sorcerer in disguise as has often been suspected about her. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 6:16:06 GMT
izzue - To continue our great R'hllor discussion in regards to Melisandre: I tend to think what you said about the Many-Faced-God has some merit and may end up playing a part in this whole thing. In the House of Black and White, we learned that tributes to all of the various Gods are represented and respected. Death is the ruler of them all and the one constant variable tying mortal men's beliefs together. But like religion in our real world cultures - it's often interpreted much differently by differing beliefs and social rules and moral values. There's definitely some misinterpretation going on with R'hllor by Melisandre. Being from Asshai, where blood magic and shadow magic are common, it's speculated that she incorporates a lot of sorcery into her religious practice. I tend to think her 'success' so far should be attributed to dark sorcery and not with R'hllor at all. Mirri Maz Duur also studied in Asshai, that's how she knew the blood magic to use on Drogo and Dany. It's dark magic in my opinion, the opposite of the light of R'hllor Melisandre convinces everyone is what casts the shadows. I think that's bunkum. Melisandre is a shadow-binder and they use dark sorcery. Also, lets remember that it's long been suspected Melisandre is not who she appears to be. She shows no aging, no reaction to cold and heat, never seems to sleep or eat or show human needs like others. To me, she is more like a vampire, immortal and casting an glamour or illusion to make herself appear as she does. It's long been speculated that ruby she wears (which glows in the books but not on the show) is part of her illusion. If it were to be removed, we might see who Melisandre really is. I like this. Quite seriously, I think this is a good explanation for what's happening. A sort of vampire sure does seem to fit, also the symbolic Hag of the folklore of most cultures, except in those cases some amount of wisdom is usually also involved. She sure does creep me out, and in the way the tv series showed her trying to seduce Jon, I can easily picture her as a vampire of sorts - she practically slithered. I wonder what her goal is, her intentions, and her motivations. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 6:22:53 GMT
It should be noted here that the fellow who played Maester Cressen said in an interview with FlicksandtheCity that Carice told him that Mel is "400 years old". I believe Carice has alluded to knowing some sortof secret about the nature of Mel before, so this makes sense with that.
Also in the commentary for ep. 210 when Mel stands up after Stan strangles her, the director Alan Taylor notes that the very odd way in which she stands up was a great choice because of...and then he stops himself. He seemed to be beginning to imply that she was already dead in some way. Emilia Clarke who also was on the commentary seemed to know what he meant by that, so they're in-the-know about whatever Mel's secret is too.
I don't think her being a shadowbinder is a secret though. IIRC the very first time she's mentioned in AGOT, Tywin says to Tyrion that Stannis has enlisted a shadowbinder from Asshai to help his cause (IIRC in the last Tyrion chapter of the book). |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 6:28:37 GMT
It should be noted here that the fellow who played Maester Cressen said in an interview with FlicksandtheCity that Carice told him that Mel is "400 years old". I believe Carice has alluded to knowing some sortof secret about the nature of Mel before, so this makes sense with that.
Also in the commentary for ep. 210 when Mel stands up after Stan strangles her, the director Alan Taylor notes that the very odd way in which she stands up was a great choice because of...and then he stops himself. He seemed to be beginning to imply that she was already dead in some way. Emilia Clarke who also was on the commentary seemed to know what he meant by that, so they're in-the-know about whatever Mel's secret is too.
I don't think her being a shadowbinder is a secret though. IIRC the very first time she's mentioned in AGOT, Tywin says to Tyrion that Stannis has enlisted a shadowbinder from Asshai to help his cause (IIRC in the last Tyrion chapter of the book). I absolutely cannot wait to see the shocker of her true reveal. Edit: I know it's not a huge secret she's a shadowbinder but it has been left vague on the show because of all her "Lord of Light" fanaticism stuff. The show audience may not have caught on as easily but then again I may not be giving them enough credit. Of course, the fact that she's going to be the one to ressurrect Jon (most likely) also creeps me out. I don't want Jon tainted by her magic but then again I keep reminding myself that every single person that's been brought back to life in the story has been fundamentally changed somehow from their former self. That makes me sad.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 6:30:30 GMT
She did look somewhat apologetic in that look she gave him - though it was somewhat hard to read. Pain, disappointment, defeat, but was there guilt there? I don't know yet if that's just mistaken emotions or supposed to throw people off and think she's had a change of heart. We won't know until we see what she's going to do next season and what she has to say for her terrible mistakes. I don't think she's long for this world next season to be honest. She has important things to do but I almost get the feeling she's going to be a sacrifice herself somehow - to atone for burning Shireen which was pointless and wrong. She still has to run into Arya remember. And walk the walls of WF. So she'll be around for THAT long at least. She was wrong about Stannis, wrong about the BoI, but I have a feeling she may be correct about these two things. The wall is close to WF, so that could easily happen soon. When she was taking Gentry away from TBWB, she looked at Arya and foresaw her in HBW, but did she say she'd actually see her at some point in the future (as in person to person?) As I wrote in a response to Envie's post just now, she really creeps me out. |
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Post by janicia on Jun 16, 2015 12:29:06 GMT
She still has to run into Arya remember. And walk the walls of WF. So she'll be around for THAT long at least. She was wrong about Stannis, wrong about the BoI, but I have a feeling she may be correct about these two things. The wall is close to WF, so that could easily happen soon. When she was taking Gentry away from TBWB, she looked at Arya and foresaw her in HBW, but did she say she'd actually see her at some point in the future (as in person to person?) As I wrote in a response to Envie's post just now, she really creeps me out. "We will meet again." Vague enough that it could refer to something besides a face-to-face encounter, but that is the most obvious interpretation. |
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And walk the walls of WF. So she'll be around for THAT long at least.
