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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 5:07:00 GMT
I'm curious what you all thought of Melisandre's final scene arriving back at the wall? This is of course very different than the still confident and powerful woman who never left the wall in the first place and was still there burning people with Queen Selyse at the end of ADWD.
Show Melisandre seems to have turned into a broken thing in her last minute abandonment of Stannis. I know why they did it - to give that last bit of hopelessness to Stannis. He knew, at the very end, that he wasn't what she said he was - and it worked on screen but it also changed Melisandre's motivations quite a bit from the book while still putting her in the same place she needs to be when FTW happened.
Do you think it will change her on the show more in Season 6? Do you think now that she's seen she is not right about her visions she will change her attitude and her role with the R'hllor theme?
We can be pretty certain it's the same magic that brought back Beric which will bring back Jon Snow and Melisandre is going to perform the "kiss of life" on him. Do you think Melisandre will then try to play counselor to Jon the way she did Stannis? Where do you see her going in TWOW and in season 6?
I'm absolutely clueless to be honest.
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Post by day dreamer on Jun 15, 2015 5:10:15 GMT
D&D will probably have her try to advise Jon the same way she did Stannis, but he probably won't have it. I'm at a lost too. I thought Carice played that disappointment brilliantly when she heard Stannis' army left, but I'm at a bit of a loss of what comes next? Will Davos try to kill her? Could he do such a thing after seeing her bring back Jon?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 5:13:16 GMT
D&D will probably have her try to advise Jon the same way she did Stannis, but he probably won't have it. I'm at a lost too. I thought Carice played that disappointment brilliantly when she heard Stannis' army left, but I'm at a bit of a loss of what comes next? Will Davos try to kill her? Could he do such a thing after seeing her bring back Jon? The only really truly off the wall wild thing I can think of that would actually fit with the way the show has played up the fires thing so much is that they burn Jon on a funeral pyre and then Davos decides to burn Melisandre on there too ... which becomes the same exact scene as Dany burning Mirri Maaz Duur waaaay back in the start of it all. Out walks Jon. Fire cannot kill the dragon. Goosebumps! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 5:14:44 GMT
Also, you're probably really right about her trying to advise Jon and he has none of it (assuming she's alive that is) ...
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Post by King Tommen on Jun 15, 2015 5:17:22 GMT
It really seems kind of weird to me that she went from jubilant about seeing the thaw to abandoning the whole cause just because more soldiers left. When has she ever cared about the odds before when she's so sure of things just working out in the end because she's seen it in the flames? It's not like she gave a shit the last time Stannis got word that parts of his army had deserted. I think it would've been more effective if she left suddenly because she saw something new in the flames that indicated the cause was lost. She didn't even stick around to hear about Selyse killing herself.
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Post by day dreamer on Jun 15, 2015 5:17:52 GMT
D&D will probably have her try to advise Jon the same way she did Stannis, but he probably won't have it. I'm at a lost too. I thought Carice played that disappointment brilliantly when she heard Stannis' army left, but I'm at a bit of a loss of what comes next? Will Davos try to kill her? Could he do such a thing after seeing her bring back Jon? The only really truly off the wall wild thing I can think of that would actually fit with the way the show has played up the fires thing so much is that they burn Jon on a funeral pyre and then Davos decides to burn Melisandre on there too ... which becomes the same exact scene as Dany burning Mirri Maaz Duur waaaay back in the start of it all. Out walks Jon. Fire cannot kill the dragon. Goosebumps! Now that would be something. They definitely have to say "and now his watch has ended" for him to do anything beyond the Night's Watch. That would be a massive fuck you visual to the people that stabbed him though. lol |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 5:24:00 GMT
Yeah I know, and it treads into major crackpot territory haha! But at this point, with all of us completely clueless, the time of crazy crackpot theories has begun in earnest. If we thought it was bad during those long "Book Years" we have no idea how bad it's going to get now between next season and whenever TWOW is finished. The two could be at complete odds with one another or in alignment but we have no way of knowing.
I'm just grasping for anything here ... Melisandre is broken as of what we saw leaving Stannis and returning to the wall. She doesn't say a word. I was going crazy! I wanted her to say something, anything!
This fucking R'hllor better be something seriously real and vital to fighting the Night's King, that's all I gotta say.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 5:34:06 GMT
It really seems kind of weird to me that she went from jubilant about seeing the thaw to abandoning the whole cause just because more soldiers left. When has she ever cared about the odds before when she's so sure of things just working out in the end because she's seen it in the flames? It's not like she gave a shit the last time Stannis got word that parts of his army had deserted. I think it would've been more effective if she left suddenly because she saw something new in the flames that indicated the cause was lost. She didn't even stick around to hear about Selyse killing herself. I will agree with this - it did feel at odds with her previously certain attitudes and they could have done a tiny bit more to help the audience understand her sudden change of mind ... because hearing the men had deserted didn't feel right for someone who supposedly saw this in her visions. But what will she do now at the wall? Does she now no longer trust her visions and instead goes on instinct? That's what Thoros of Myr did if I recall. He didn't really know what was going to happen when he gave Beric Dondarrion the kiss of life - he just did it and no one had ever told him of it nor had he ever seen it. Maybe Melisandre will be moved by divine will instead of her stupid visions now... now that she's broken? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 5:54:51 GMT
Yeah, and I think that in itself is another little cliff hanger. I noticed that when she arrived back at the wall, she had her hair wound around her head and had a coat/shawl thing around her, as if she were retreating into a cocoon. That blank stare she gave Jon and Davos spoke volumes. She's beaten (for now). We know she has magic, as evidenced by the shadow baby. Some of the leeches appeared to 'work', but that could just be due to the fact that wars kill people and kings are especially at risk, in spite of their guards.
She'll definitely be back in Season 6, and I think she's got a lot of 'fire watching' to do in order to divine what comes next, and probably a 'Come to Jesus' talk with R'hllor, though I think she'll remain loyal to him. She has said that she can wrongly interpret what she sees in the fires, and I think it will dawn on her that the reason she keeps seeing Jon is, duh, because he is Azor Ahai. And then she'll glum onto him. A woman hopes that she'll be a little more cautious this time about what she predicts, but we know her magic is stronger at the Wall. I just think she has a major part to play in the battle to come with the WW. (It'd be great if she learns to throw fireballs like the Child of the Forest did when Bran and company reached BR's cave.)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 6:22:07 GMT
I hope she does have a coming-to-jeebus moment with her Red God and figures things out a little better because before Stannis went ahead and decided to burn Shireen on her advice, I wanted her dead. I want her dead now only if it's part of bringing Jon back - and then later she can die in some appropriate way as repayment for Shireen.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 9:04:37 GMT
I honestly expected everyone that was present during the burning of Shireen to be dead/broken in the finale (There really isn't anyone left besides the our mastermind behind that, is it?) The whole scene was just that miserable and Stannis mimics during yelled 'Broken man' at me.
I think she had some kind of vision of Jon and Stannis dying, knowing she only has the power to save one. And since the Bolton aren't the real threat, she concentrates on the greater, the Others.
Her miserable expressed, that she might have known deep in her for long that Stannis isn't going to win and that she kinda fought stubbornly against it and tried everything to favour him and his purpose.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 9:18:12 GMT
D&D will probably have her try to advise Jon the same way she did Stannis, but he probably won't have it. I'm at a lost too. I thought Carice played that disappointment brilliantly when she heard Stannis' army left, but I'm at a bit of a loss of what comes next? Will Davos try to kill her? Could he do such a thing after seeing her bring back Jon? The only really truly off the wall wild thing I can think of that would actually fit with the way the show has played up the fires thing so much is that they burn Jon on a funeral pyre and then Davos decides to burn Melisandre on there too ... which becomes the same exact scene as Dany burning Mirri Maaz Duur waaaay back in the start of it all. Out walks Jon. Fire cannot kill the dragon. Goosebumps! I hope this doesn't happen personally  the pyre was Dany's thing! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 9:22:18 GMT
I honestly expected everyone that was present during the burning of Shireen to be dead/broken in the finale (There really isn't anyone left besides the our mastermind behind that, is it?) The whole scene was just that miserable and Stannis mimics during yelled 'Broken man' at me. I think she had some kind of vision of Jon and Stannis dying, knowing she only has the power to save one. And since the Bolton aren't the real threat, she concentrates on the greater, the Others. Her miserable expressed, that she might have known deep in her for long that Stannis isn't going to win and that she kinda fought stubbornly against it and tried everything to favour him and his purpose. You're giving her more credit than I would. From the way they filmed it, it looks like she just jumped ship because Stannis lost his army and she didn't want to stick around and be killed herself. They could have done a better job of making sure the audience understands why she's leaving IMO. Not that I want her to look 'good' (she's very grey) or 'bad' but it was too ambiguous. The only really truly off the wall wild thing I can think of that would actually fit with the way the show has played up the fires thing so much is that they burn Jon on a funeral pyre and then Davos decides to burn Melisandre on there too ... which becomes the same exact scene as Dany burning Mirri Maaz Duur waaaay back in the start of it all. Out walks Jon. Fire cannot kill the dragon. Goosebumps! I hope this doesn't happen personally the pyre was Dany's thing! 99% sure it's NOT going to happen haha. I just made up the first thing to come to my head when I tried to imagine the aftermath with Melisandre returned defeated and Davos there as well for the big event with Jon Snow. Next season is going to be wild for sure. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 9:44:23 GMT
I honestly expected everyone that was present during the burning of Shireen to be dead/broken in the finale (There really isn't anyone left besides the our mastermind behind that, is it?) The whole scene was just that miserable and Stannis mimics during yelled 'Broken man' at me. I think she had some kind of vision of Jon and Stannis dying, knowing she only has the power to save one. And since the Bolton aren't the real threat, she concentrates on the greater, the Others. Her miserable expressed, that she might have known deep in her for long that Stannis isn't going to win and that she kinda fought stubbornly against it and tried everything to favour him and his purpose. You're giving her more credit than I would. From the way they filmed it, it looks like she just jumped ship because Stannis lost his army and she didn't want to stick around and be killed herself. They could have done a better job of making sure the audience understands why she's leaving IMO. Not that I want her to look 'good' (she's very grey) or 'bad' but it was too ambiguous. I hope this doesn't happen personally the pyre was Dany's thing! 99% sure it's NOT going to happen haha. I just made up the first thing to come to my head when I tried to imagine the aftermath with Melisandre returned defeated and Davos there as well for the big event with Jon Snow. Next season is going to be wild for sure. I don't pity her at all, don't get me wrong. Stannis would have never sacrificied his daughter if it wasn't for her. To me it's more like she had to jump off her high horse or better, get pushed out of the saddle. She believed everything she did and yet brushed away the tiniest doubts, that Stannis might not be the right one, that there is another one who qualifies as AAR. She wasn't able to support him with her whole power and wasn't able to admit that at the same time. This was her failure at last. The way she looks at Davos told me that she had come to the conclusion that she failed badly. And for her this was a new thing. She believed Stannis had lost Blackwater because she wasn't there. She believed that the leeches killed the kings. And now she did a 180 turn from self-approval and smugness to the hard reality. Edit: I hope you understand what I mean, I really struggled to express myself. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 9:53:05 GMT
I think I do understand, or at least I empathize! It's hard to articulate this soon after the shock of the finale. Even for those of us who thought we understood what was happening, it ended up being quite confusing and shocking! Melisandre did seem to realize she had failed terribly and she did not even say a word when Davos confronted her. She really looked, almost literally, like her fire had gone out. I have re-watched that final bit with her and Davos several times and I have to hand it to Carice, she went from haughty woman of power to crumpled red flower in 1 minute flat. Impressive acting. Damn, this is going to be a LONG wait to see what she's thinking or going to do.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 10:00:14 GMT
I think I do understand, or at least I empathize! It's hard to articulate this soon after the shock of the finale. Even for those of us who thought we understood what was happening, it ended up being quite confusing and shocking! Melisandre did seem to realize she had failed terribly and she did not even say a word when Davos confronted her. She really looked, almost literally, like her fire had gone out. I have re-watched that final bit with her and Davos several times and I have to hand it to Carice, she went from haughty woman of power to crumpled red flower in 1 minute flat. Impressive acting. Damn, this is going to be a LONG wait to see what she's thinking or going to do. Carice did wonderful indeed. Yeah, fire gone out what the kind of metaphor I was looking for, thank you. It's so early to speculate, but I don't think Davos will kill her anymore, I don't know why. Maybe things will get bad so quickly at the wall, that there isn't any time for hate and vengeance. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 14:02:38 GMT
One thing that bothered me is that no one except Melisandre will ever know what happened. Davos won't know for sure that she burned Shireen, though I bet he will suspect as much. I wonder what will happen when he presses her for details, or if that will even happen in the short term, as I expect everything at the Wall to be in major upheaval following Jon's stabbing. I also wonder how long the remaining NW will allow her to stay there.
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Post by mattpeto on Jun 15, 2015 14:13:00 GMT
^^^^
There were a ton of deserters, Davos will find out.
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Post by Admin on Jun 15, 2015 19:06:48 GMT
I never wanted to punch anyone in the face as much as this bitch. And she actually dared looking apologetic to Davos. I hope she dies a slow painful death.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 19:56:50 GMT
One thing that bothered me is that no one except Melisandre will ever know what happened. Davos won't know for sure that she burned Shireen, though I bet he will suspect as much. I wonder what will happen when he presses her for details, or if that will even happen in the short term, as I expect everything at the Wall to be in major upheaval following Jon's stabbing. I also wonder how long the remaining NW will allow her to stay there. Things are going to be pretty chaotic at the wall for a bit considering what just happened and there's no clear cut leader. We assume Thorne will take over but he's not loved by Tormund or the wildlings so that's a big problem. Melisandre can only stay at the wall if she brings Jon back and even then it's uncertain how she's going to be received. With Davos there - there's a good chance she dies - but whether that's by his doing or her own, or someone else is anybody's guess. I think she has important things to do next season but no clue what. ^^^^ There were a ton of deserters, Davos will find out. I agree - there's little way she's going to be able to lie about what happened to Shireen. Some of Stannis' own men were running away in that huge overview scene where the much larger Bolton army was swallowing them up. The men who deserted him before the battle will probably have a lot to say about the terrible things that happened before they left. I never wanted to punch anyone in the face as much as this bitch. And she actually dared looking apologetic to Davos. I hope she dies a slow painful death. She did look somewhat apologetic in that look she gave him - though it was somewhat hard to read. Pain, disappointment, defeat, but was there guilt there? I don't know yet if that's just mistaken emotions or supposed to throw people off and think she's had a change of heart. We won't know until we see what she's going to do next season and what she has to say for her terrible mistakes. I don't think she's long for this world next season to be honest. She has important things to do but I almost get the feeling she's going to be a sacrifice herself somehow - to atone for burning Shireen which was pointless and wrong. |
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the pyre was Dany's thing!
