Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 2:26:28 GMT
I wasn't sure if this would be more fitting for Season 5 (Since that's where the confirmation reveal happened in 5x08) or in Season 6 Discussion forum because that's likely where the fight against the Others begins to involve other Houses and people of Westeros. So I decided to just plop it in General chat and see who is interested in discussing and researching this fascinating topic.
As you know from the Hardhome battle scenes, Jon's sword "Longclaw" did not shatter when it met with the White Walker's magical blade. This was shocking to both fighters and resulted in Jon destroying the White Walker into a million shards of ice (epic!). In the book, Jon and Sam discuss their personal theory on what "Dragonsteel" is as was referred to in knowledge Sam was researching from ancient Night's Watch archives in the Castle Black library. Though it was never confirmed or stated outright - the long running theory among book fans has been that Valyrian steel would possibly kill a White Walker. The show gave us the proof we needed for Sam and Jon's theory to be confirmed and now everyone with a Valyrian steel blade of any kind will become a potentially important player in fighting the Others as they most likely head south into Westeros to destroy everyone in their path with their undead army.
Here's the wiki entry for Valyrian Steel to begin our research:
awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Valyrian_steel
Of particular note:
“ Valyrian steel blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone.”
– thoughts of Tyrion Lannister
“ Valyrian steel is a fantasy metal. Which means it has magical characteristics, and magic plays a role in its forging.”
– George R. R. Martin
“ Valyrian steel was always costly, but it became considerably more so when there was no more Valyria, and the secret of its making were lost.”
– George R. R. Martin
Yet, we know Tywin Lannister found one of only a few smiths who had the knowledge to re-forge Ned Stark's Greatsword "Ice" into two separate blades (Widow's Wail, presumed with Tommen now that Joffrey's dead, and Oathkeeper, in Brienne's possession currently).
This begins the discussion about where these "perhaps two hundred" blades (obviously just an estimate in his mind) Tyrion mentioned might still be in Westeros. Where are they and who owns them?
Here is a great writeup done a year ago by a smart person on the ASoIaF Reddit forum I'll use as a launching point for our discussion:
www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/21t93e/
And here I'll define his list (which is only a small fraction of the total):
Blackfyre
Owner: House Targaryen
Wielded by: Aegon the Conqueror, all subsequent Targ kings up until Daemon Blackfyre, who was killed during the Rebellion that bears the sword's name
Whereabouts: Unknown, last known to be in the possession of Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers, who claimed the sword from the Redgrass Field before fleeing to Essos and forming the Golden Company
Implications: A very good possibility is that the blade is still in the hands of the Golden Company, and thus has passed to Aegon/Young Griff. This would certainly help him try to prove his legitimacy as the heir to the throne.
Dark Sister
Owner: House Targaryen
Wielded By: Visenya Targaryen, Aemon the Dragonknight, Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers
Whereabouts: unknown, last known to be in the possession of Bloodraven
Implications: The real question here is whether or not Bloodraven took the sword with him to the Wall when he took the black. This would seem to be the most likely option, as it otherwise would have probably passed to another Targ. Thus, is it very possible that the sword is still with him north of the Wall.
Heartsbane
Owner: House Tarly
Wielded by: Randyll Tarly and his predecessors, it is typically passed on to the eldest son of the family
Location: King's Landing, along with Lord Tarly himself, who is serving as Tommen's Justiciar
Implications: As one of Westeros' most militaristic houses, it makes sense that the Tarlys would have a weapon that is as feared as they are. Currently Lord Tarly has it, but in the event of his (in my opinion, fairly likely) death, it would pass to his younger son and heir, Dickon.
Longclaw
Owner: House Mormont
Wielded by: Jeor Mormont, Jorah Mormont, Jon Snow
Location: Currently, the sword is in the possession of Lord Commander Jon Snow, who received it from Jeor Mormont in place of his exiled son Jorah.
Implications: Longclaw probably has the best chance of actually being used against the Others out of any sword with the possible exception of Dark Sister, assuming it is still with Bloodraven north of the Wall. Longclaw's future heavily depends on that of Jon Snow, who I believed will be revived by The Lord of Light relatively early in TWoW.
Lady Forlorn
Owner: House Corbray
Wielded by: Ser Gwayne Corbray, Lyn Corbray
Location: Currently in the possession of Ser Lyn Corbray of the Vale
Implications: Though they have remained neutral for the majority of the series, the Vale is not going to remain safe forever. It is highly likely that we will see Lady Forlorn and Ser Lyn in action relatively soon.
Red Rain
Owner: House Drumm
Wielded By: Hilmar the Cunning, Lord Dunstan Drumm
Location: At last check, Lord Dunstan was with the majority of the Greyjoy forces reaving in the Reach. He was last seen on Oakenshield after the Battle of the Shield Islands
Implications: Obviously the Reach is a long way from the Wall, so while we will almost certainly see Red Rain used, it might be a while before it can be used against the Others.
Nightfall
Owner: House Harlaw
Wielded by: Ser Harras Harlaw, heir to his house
Location: Greyshield, along with Ser Harras
Implications: This sword in particular is interesting to me for two reasons. One, because it reminded me that the Greyjoys have at least two Valyrian steel swords under their command, but will probably be one of the later houses to join in the fight against the Others. In addition, It may no longer belong to House Harlaw due to Ser Harras being named by Euron as the new Lord of Greyshield.
Brightroar
Owner: House Lannister
Wielded by: King Tommen II of the Rock, Gerion Lannister?
Location: Unknown, the sword was lost when King Tommen of the Rock attempted to sail to Old Valyria after the Doom.
Implications: Despite seeing several posts to the contrary, I believe that Brightroar is well and truly gone. While I do believe that we will see Old Valyria at some point, the odds of finding one sword among an entire ruined kingdom are slim to none.
Widow's Wail
Owner: House Lannister
Wielded by: King Joffrey Baratheon, King Tommen Baratheon.
Location: King's Landing
Implications: Unfortunately for him, I do not believe that our young boy king is going to reach an age where he will be old enough to properly wield Widow's Wail. Depending on the events of TWoW, several things could happen to the sword, but I have seen a theory that it will be reforged with Oathkeeper into Ice, from which it was made.
Oathkeeper
Owner: House Lannister, House Tarth
Wielded by: Jaimie Lannister, Brienne of Tarth
Location: The Riverlands, along with the captured Brienne and Ser Jaimie.
Implications: This depends heavily on the fate of Brienne herself, who was last seen meeting up with Jaimie in the Riverlands to (presumably) bring him back to the Brotherhood Without Banners and Lady Stoneheart. My personal opinion is that Stoneheart will force the two to fight to the death, and that Brienne will let Jaimie kill her, thus allowing him to reclaim the sword that was meant to be his in the first place.
Vigilance
Owner: House Hightower
Wielded by: Lord Ormund Hightower
Location: Unknown, presumably in Oldtown.
Implications: Though supposedly one of the most powerful families in Westeros, the Hightowers have been an enigma for most of the series. However, I believe this will change in TWoW when the Greyjoys decide to attack Oldtown. Due to his age, it is unlikely that Lord Leyton would wield the sword himself, but rather it will probably be wielded by one of his numerous sons.
Orphan Maker
Owner: House Roxton
Wielded by: Ser Jon Roxton
Location: Unknown
Implications: House Roxton has thus far not appeared in the main series, with their lone mention being in The Princess and the Queen. It is possible that House Roxton remained loyal to the Targaryens during Robert's Rebellion, and were subsequently punished or diminished similar to houses Plumm and Connington.
_____
**Note: The author wrote his list a year ago and did not at that time know what we now know from episode 5x08 but he made excellent predictions all the way down in the Implications part.
It's also worth mentioning the other various weapons out there and known about which are made from Valyrian Steel:
- A Valyrian steel Arakh wielded by Caggo, a sellsword Captain.
- The Valyrian Steel Dagger with dragonbone hilt wielded by the assassin sent to kill Bran, owned by Littlefinger and won in a bet from Tyrion.
- A Valyrian steel War Axe supposedly owned by House Celtigar.
Some other things made of Valyrian Steel: A link in some of the maester's chains (including Maester Luwen), a missing Targaryen crown, the Horn Dragonbinder, and mention of a ring and a mask (details on the wiki).
_____
So, given the list we know about as well as more that are listed in the "unknown" status from the wiki - it does not seem there are more than a dozen or so swords possible in Westeros though it's said there could be 200 or more. What do you think? Do you think many of the houses have some of these blades hidden or unknown to us the readers that will be revealed in the great battle against the Others in the Long Night?
I think it's particularly interesting to notice that of the *known* blades, many of them are in perfect alignment to be used and contribute against the White Walkers at the wall:
1. Blackfyre if it's with fAegon? He's not in the show (yet) but could he make an appearance in Season 6 to wield it in the war?
2. Dark Sister if it's still north of the wall with Bloodraven (or if it's anywhere). Though Bran can't wield it easily... so how would it get south?
2. Heartsbane is with the Tarly House and we know they are being cast for Season 6 so perhaps they play a very important role in this coming battle?
3. Longclaw is with Jon Snow and has now seen action against and destroyed a White Walker, ready for battle in season 6!
4. Lady Forlorn is in the Vale with the Corbrays. If the Vale is moved to action by Littlefinger or their own accord, then this blade will become a player.
5. Red Rain and Nightfall may both be on Team Euron Greyjoy next season since both of those houses fall under that umbrella...
6. Widow's Wail won't be wielded by Tommen, we can be pretty sure of that - so who in House Lannister will wield it and will it stay in King's Landing?
7. Oathkeeper is probably a definite for White Walker destruction in the hands of Brienne. She's already in position outside Winterfell!
8. Vigilance at House Hightower would be at Oldtown if anywhere and we know Oldtown is definitely going to be a key location in season 6. Sam is likely going there as in the books and Euron is heading that way for his invasion. If the White Walkers disrupt the civil war, then this blade will become important and be in a good place for that.
Summary/TLDR: Still ... so few. Less than a dozen well known blades. Where are all the rest? Can more be made? What "special magic" was used to create them in Valyria and can it be reproduced by dragons or someone connected to dragons?
If more "dragonsteel" is out there ... it will be needed. Dragonglass will also play an important role for the armies and is likely easier to find and mass produce arrows and smaller blades (spear heads?) from but as far as I know, obsidian is not a particularly hard material and would likely not make a great sword, would it?
Discuss!
As you know from the Hardhome battle scenes, Jon's sword "Longclaw" did not shatter when it met with the White Walker's magical blade. This was shocking to both fighters and resulted in Jon destroying the White Walker into a million shards of ice (epic!). In the book, Jon and Sam discuss their personal theory on what "Dragonsteel" is as was referred to in knowledge Sam was researching from ancient Night's Watch archives in the Castle Black library. Though it was never confirmed or stated outright - the long running theory among book fans has been that Valyrian steel would possibly kill a White Walker. The show gave us the proof we needed for Sam and Jon's theory to be confirmed and now everyone with a Valyrian steel blade of any kind will become a potentially important player in fighting the Others as they most likely head south into Westeros to destroy everyone in their path with their undead army.
Here's the wiki entry for Valyrian Steel to begin our research:
awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Valyrian_steel
Of particular note:
“ Valyrian steel blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone.”
– thoughts of Tyrion Lannister
“ Valyrian steel is a fantasy metal. Which means it has magical characteristics, and magic plays a role in its forging.”
– George R. R. Martin
“ Valyrian steel was always costly, but it became considerably more so when there was no more Valyria, and the secret of its making were lost.”
– George R. R. Martin
Yet, we know Tywin Lannister found one of only a few smiths who had the knowledge to re-forge Ned Stark's Greatsword "Ice" into two separate blades (Widow's Wail, presumed with Tommen now that Joffrey's dead, and Oathkeeper, in Brienne's possession currently).
This begins the discussion about where these "perhaps two hundred" blades (obviously just an estimate in his mind) Tyrion mentioned might still be in Westeros. Where are they and who owns them?
Here is a great writeup done a year ago by a smart person on the ASoIaF Reddit forum I'll use as a launching point for our discussion:
www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/21t93e/
And here I'll define his list (which is only a small fraction of the total):
Blackfyre
Owner: House Targaryen
Wielded by: Aegon the Conqueror, all subsequent Targ kings up until Daemon Blackfyre, who was killed during the Rebellion that bears the sword's name
Whereabouts: Unknown, last known to be in the possession of Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers, who claimed the sword from the Redgrass Field before fleeing to Essos and forming the Golden Company
Implications: A very good possibility is that the blade is still in the hands of the Golden Company, and thus has passed to Aegon/Young Griff. This would certainly help him try to prove his legitimacy as the heir to the throne.
Dark Sister
Owner: House Targaryen
Wielded By: Visenya Targaryen, Aemon the Dragonknight, Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers
Whereabouts: unknown, last known to be in the possession of Bloodraven
Implications: The real question here is whether or not Bloodraven took the sword with him to the Wall when he took the black. This would seem to be the most likely option, as it otherwise would have probably passed to another Targ. Thus, is it very possible that the sword is still with him north of the Wall.
Heartsbane
Owner: House Tarly
Wielded by: Randyll Tarly and his predecessors, it is typically passed on to the eldest son of the family
Location: King's Landing, along with Lord Tarly himself, who is serving as Tommen's Justiciar
Implications: As one of Westeros' most militaristic houses, it makes sense that the Tarlys would have a weapon that is as feared as they are. Currently Lord Tarly has it, but in the event of his (in my opinion, fairly likely) death, it would pass to his younger son and heir, Dickon.
Longclaw
Owner: House Mormont
Wielded by: Jeor Mormont, Jorah Mormont, Jon Snow
Location: Currently, the sword is in the possession of Lord Commander Jon Snow, who received it from Jeor Mormont in place of his exiled son Jorah.
Implications: Longclaw probably has the best chance of actually being used against the Others out of any sword with the possible exception of Dark Sister, assuming it is still with Bloodraven north of the Wall. Longclaw's future heavily depends on that of Jon Snow, who I believed will be revived by The Lord of Light relatively early in TWoW.
Lady Forlorn
Owner: House Corbray
Wielded by: Ser Gwayne Corbray, Lyn Corbray
Location: Currently in the possession of Ser Lyn Corbray of the Vale
Implications: Though they have remained neutral for the majority of the series, the Vale is not going to remain safe forever. It is highly likely that we will see Lady Forlorn and Ser Lyn in action relatively soon.
Red Rain
Owner: House Drumm
Wielded By: Hilmar the Cunning, Lord Dunstan Drumm
Location: At last check, Lord Dunstan was with the majority of the Greyjoy forces reaving in the Reach. He was last seen on Oakenshield after the Battle of the Shield Islands
Implications: Obviously the Reach is a long way from the Wall, so while we will almost certainly see Red Rain used, it might be a while before it can be used against the Others.
Nightfall
Owner: House Harlaw
Wielded by: Ser Harras Harlaw, heir to his house
Location: Greyshield, along with Ser Harras
Implications: This sword in particular is interesting to me for two reasons. One, because it reminded me that the Greyjoys have at least two Valyrian steel swords under their command, but will probably be one of the later houses to join in the fight against the Others. In addition, It may no longer belong to House Harlaw due to Ser Harras being named by Euron as the new Lord of Greyshield.
Brightroar
Owner: House Lannister
Wielded by: King Tommen II of the Rock, Gerion Lannister?
Location: Unknown, the sword was lost when King Tommen of the Rock attempted to sail to Old Valyria after the Doom.
Implications: Despite seeing several posts to the contrary, I believe that Brightroar is well and truly gone. While I do believe that we will see Old Valyria at some point, the odds of finding one sword among an entire ruined kingdom are slim to none.
Widow's Wail
Owner: House Lannister
Wielded by: King Joffrey Baratheon, King Tommen Baratheon.
Location: King's Landing
Implications: Unfortunately for him, I do not believe that our young boy king is going to reach an age where he will be old enough to properly wield Widow's Wail. Depending on the events of TWoW, several things could happen to the sword, but I have seen a theory that it will be reforged with Oathkeeper into Ice, from which it was made.
Oathkeeper
Owner: House Lannister, House Tarth
Wielded by: Jaimie Lannister, Brienne of Tarth
Location: The Riverlands, along with the captured Brienne and Ser Jaimie.
Implications: This depends heavily on the fate of Brienne herself, who was last seen meeting up with Jaimie in the Riverlands to (presumably) bring him back to the Brotherhood Without Banners and Lady Stoneheart. My personal opinion is that Stoneheart will force the two to fight to the death, and that Brienne will let Jaimie kill her, thus allowing him to reclaim the sword that was meant to be his in the first place.
Vigilance
Owner: House Hightower
Wielded by: Lord Ormund Hightower
Location: Unknown, presumably in Oldtown.
Implications: Though supposedly one of the most powerful families in Westeros, the Hightowers have been an enigma for most of the series. However, I believe this will change in TWoW when the Greyjoys decide to attack Oldtown. Due to his age, it is unlikely that Lord Leyton would wield the sword himself, but rather it will probably be wielded by one of his numerous sons.
Orphan Maker
Owner: House Roxton
Wielded by: Ser Jon Roxton
Location: Unknown
Implications: House Roxton has thus far not appeared in the main series, with their lone mention being in The Princess and the Queen. It is possible that House Roxton remained loyal to the Targaryens during Robert's Rebellion, and were subsequently punished or diminished similar to houses Plumm and Connington.
_____
**Note: The author wrote his list a year ago and did not at that time know what we now know from episode 5x08 but he made excellent predictions all the way down in the Implications part.
It's also worth mentioning the other various weapons out there and known about which are made from Valyrian Steel:
- A Valyrian steel Arakh wielded by Caggo, a sellsword Captain.
- The Valyrian Steel Dagger with dragonbone hilt wielded by the assassin sent to kill Bran, owned by Littlefinger and won in a bet from Tyrion.
- A Valyrian steel War Axe supposedly owned by House Celtigar.
Some other things made of Valyrian Steel: A link in some of the maester's chains (including Maester Luwen), a missing Targaryen crown, the Horn Dragonbinder, and mention of a ring and a mask (details on the wiki).
_____
So, given the list we know about as well as more that are listed in the "unknown" status from the wiki - it does not seem there are more than a dozen or so swords possible in Westeros though it's said there could be 200 or more. What do you think? Do you think many of the houses have some of these blades hidden or unknown to us the readers that will be revealed in the great battle against the Others in the Long Night?
I think it's particularly interesting to notice that of the *known* blades, many of them are in perfect alignment to be used and contribute against the White Walkers at the wall:
1. Blackfyre if it's with fAegon? He's not in the show (yet) but could he make an appearance in Season 6 to wield it in the war?
2. Dark Sister if it's still north of the wall with Bloodraven (or if it's anywhere). Though Bran can't wield it easily... so how would it get south?
2. Heartsbane is with the Tarly House and we know they are being cast for Season 6 so perhaps they play a very important role in this coming battle?
3. Longclaw is with Jon Snow and has now seen action against and destroyed a White Walker, ready for battle in season 6!
4. Lady Forlorn is in the Vale with the Corbrays. If the Vale is moved to action by Littlefinger or their own accord, then this blade will become a player.
5. Red Rain and Nightfall may both be on Team Euron Greyjoy next season since both of those houses fall under that umbrella...
6. Widow's Wail won't be wielded by Tommen, we can be pretty sure of that - so who in House Lannister will wield it and will it stay in King's Landing?
7. Oathkeeper is probably a definite for White Walker destruction in the hands of Brienne. She's already in position outside Winterfell!
8. Vigilance at House Hightower would be at Oldtown if anywhere and we know Oldtown is definitely going to be a key location in season 6. Sam is likely going there as in the books and Euron is heading that way for his invasion. If the White Walkers disrupt the civil war, then this blade will become important and be in a good place for that.
Summary/TLDR: Still ... so few. Less than a dozen well known blades. Where are all the rest? Can more be made? What "special magic" was used to create them in Valyria and can it be reproduced by dragons or someone connected to dragons?
If more "dragonsteel" is out there ... it will be needed. Dragonglass will also play an important role for the armies and is likely easier to find and mass produce arrows and smaller blades (spear heads?) from but as far as I know, obsidian is not a particularly hard material and would likely not make a great sword, would it?
Discuss!
