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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 17:23:00 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 17:28:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 17:52:51 GMT
Someone get a bucket of cold water ready!
I might need one after reading this.
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Post by Admin on May 10, 2015 18:02:02 GMT
Oh dear God  The return of agency  |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 18:04:50 GMT
Agency...  |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 18:09:15 GMT
Ok, that wasn't that good.
And even I hate the word "agency" so if that doesn't say it's overused as fuck I don't know what does.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 18:09:51 GMT
Agency. Mentioned twice in a single article. And the Sansa episode hasn't even aired yet. Somebody, just kill me now, get it over with, already.
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Post by kingeomer on May 10, 2015 21:54:13 GMT
Agency. Mentioned twice in a single article. And the Sansa episode hasn't even aired yet. Somebody, just kill me now, get it over with, already. My thoughts exactly. If there was one character that I would expect would run screaming from the Iron Throne, it would probably be Sansa. Followed by Jon. I just don't see either one of those characters wanting anything to do with the Iron Throne at all. |
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serpounce
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Post by serpounce on May 15, 2015 11:28:57 GMT
I have to wonder what Martin thinks about all the hubbub around Sansa. She was an after thought and he seems to consider her a second tier character so I really would love to hear his honest thoughts about the attention, fanaticism and devotion she gets. His honest thoughts because I'm not sure about the level of honesty in some of the things we see quoted from him.
I would be very surprised to see Sansa get a position of authority, agency or no. She seems to be learning how to wield power from the shadows, as LF does.
Does anyone think she'll walk away from it all and settle for a simple life with a family as some think the Jaime quote about the marrying a blacksmith foreshadows?
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 11:42:07 GMT
She was an after-thought initially but I don't think she is anymore. I don't think he considers any of the remaining original POVs as second-tier characters (outwith the trifecta of Jon/Daenerys/Tyrion of course) since they were the POVs he planned to tell the entire story through*. Plus, Sansa and Arya's arcs are both very parallel to each other that I can't consider either of them as being on a different "tier" to each other.
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Post by kingeomer on May 15, 2015 13:05:52 GMT
I have to wonder what Martin thinks about all the hubbub around Sansa. She was an after thought and he seems to consider her a second tier character so I really would love to hear his honest thoughts about the attention, fanaticism and devotion she gets. His honest thoughts because I'm not sure about the level of honesty in some of the things we see quoted from him. I would be very surprised to see Sansa get a position of authority, agency or no. She seems to be learning how to wield power from the shadows, as LF does. Does anyone think she'll walk away from it all and settle for a simple life with a family as some think the Jaime quote about the marrying a blacksmith foreshadows? Speaking as someone who enjoys the Sansa character books and TV version, it would stand to reason that after all she has been through, a simple life with a family married to a common man might seem like a very good ending for her. She finds a good husband but he is not of the nobility class and she's perfectly happy. She checks out of all the power plays, decides she is no longer someone's pawn and by marrying a commoner her children won't be someone's pawn. I would say that ending is not out of the realm of possibility for her but it's hard to say without any clear idea where GRRM is taking her in the books. My sense is that she and Arya are definitely not destined for positions of power in the books. And depending on how Jon is resolved, I see him being the one to walk away from it when it's rightfully his and he might wind up being the best choice for it. Maybe about as powerful as Jon will allow himself to be is warden of the North or regent to the Warden of the North (hello Rickon). |
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serpounce
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Post by serpounce on May 15, 2015 20:49:35 GMT
Fire and Blood, I do think the top tier are the 3 you mention here and the others are second and third tier so yes, Arya would be with Sansa on that second line. The story doesn't resolve around them the way it does around Tyrion, Jon and Daenerys, imho. That said, second tier characters are extremely important. I don't think the story would survive without Cesei, Varys, LF and the like but the story doesn't revolve around them in the same way. And it wouldn't be as interesting without characters like Joffrey, Sansa, Arya, Stannis, Boltons etc.
I agree with you, kingeomer. Arya and Sansa do not seem likely to hold any position of power by the end of the tale. And I agree that while Jon seems to be foreshadowed to have access to some of the greatest power of the series, he won't go for it. Sad, because I think he'd make a great king. At the same time, though, I don't think a king is the right move for Westeros.
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Post by day dreamer on May 16, 2015 15:48:06 GMT
Can someone explain the "agency" joke about Sansa? I didn't read the Sansa threads at westeros.org
As for the action article, I see Sansa having a lot of power down the line, but in the North. Not the Iron Throne.
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Post by Admin on May 16, 2015 16:34:20 GMT
Can someone explain the "agency" joke about Sansa? I didn't read the Sansa threads at westeros.org As for the action article, I see Sansa having a lot of power down the line, but in the North. Not the Iron Throne. It was basically just the overuse of that word, people shouting that Sansa has no agency over and over again |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 16:51:14 GMT
Not just that, the show robbed Sansa of her agency by removing the Dontos subplot.
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on May 16, 2015 21:33:22 GMT
She was an after-thought initially but I don't think she is anymore. I don't think he considers any of the remaining original POVs as second-tier characters (outwith the trifecta of Jon/Daenerys/Tyrion of course) since they were the POVs he planned to tell the entire story through*. Plus, Sansa and Arya's arcs are both very parallel to each other that I can't consider either of them as being on a different "tier" to each other. I see Arya's arc as more paralleling Bran's with the warging and having mentors who are creepy but have never been complicit in the death of any of her family, and Arya's his #2 fave behind Tyrion and the only one to appear in all 5 books, and in Clash and Storm she has a lot more chapters than Sansa. I think the first time he mentioned I saw GrrM mention Sansa as a fave, he also brought up Vic and Cersei, which did not seem like a good sign. I think Sansa's importance has definitely increased since he first conceived of her, but of the surviving PoVs, only Bran gets less focus from GrrM but his chaptercount matters less since his magic plot is obviously a big deal. A lot's changed since that original letter but I really think the big 5 (Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Arya & Bran) are still the big 5. I'd much rather see Sansa escape the game and settle down with a nice boy like Pod than really climb the ladder after being molded by LF, I hope the climax of that arc just involves her having a role in LF's downfall. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 22:05:25 GMT
She was an after-thought initially but I don't think she is anymore. I don't think he considers any of the remaining original POVs as second-tier characters (outwith the trifecta of Jon/Daenerys/Tyrion of course) since they were the POVs he planned to tell the entire story through*. Plus, Sansa and Arya's arcs are both very parallel to each other that I can't consider either of them as being on a different "tier" to each other. I see Arya's arc as more paralleling Bran's with the warging and having mentors who are creepy but have never been complicit in the death of any of her family Littlefinger isn't creepy?? Lol. I think your "and have never been complicit in the death of their family" is just a random, unnecessarily specific condition to exclude her from your Arya and Bran comparison. Anyway, there are a lot of similarities between arya and sansa. They lose their wolf at the same time, enter their survival situations at the same time (Arya meandering through the riverlands and sansa prisoner in KL), they leave their survival situations at (roughly) the same time and go through their identity crises at the same time. Their arcs largely hit the same beats at around the same time and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. Anyway I'm on my phone so that's just a very high level summary of my thoughts lol. Although I could probably find a good tumblr essay to explain what I mean much better than I ever could. |
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on May 16, 2015 22:34:22 GMT
I see Arya's arc as more paralleling Bran's with the warging and having mentors who are creepy but have never been complicit in the death of any of her family Littlefinger isn't creepy?? Lol. I think your "and have never been complicit in the death of their family" is just a random, unnecessarily specific condition to exclude her from your Arya and Bran comparison. Anyway, there are a lot of similarities between arya and sansa. They lose their wolf at the same time, enter their survival situations at the same time (Arya meandering through the riverlands and sansa prisoner in KL), they leave their survival situations at (roughly) the same time and go through their identity crises at the same time. Their arcs largely hit the same beats at around the same time and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. Anyway I'm on my phone so that's just a very high level summary of my thoughts lol. Although I could probably find a good tumblr essay to explain what I mean much better than I ever could. No, he's the skeeviest and the only Stark betrayer hiding a huge secret from his charge. Sansa trusts "Petyr" a whole lot more than Arya feels close to the FM and I expect Arya to split from them at some point but not to take them down, as I hope LF goes down. And Mr 1,001 eyes has been shady since the days of Dunk and Egg, but I do think lack of Stark baggage is a huge difference as is Arya's wolf actually being alive and her wolf dreams starting in Storm soon after Jon and Bran's in Clash. I googled Bran/Arya parallels and got this from tumblr There's also a lot of black and white and red imagery, references to the Moon, and references to Nedisms present in Bran and Arya's arc but not in Sansa's, along with the potions Arya is fed at the HoBaW and Bran's paste which may or may not be filled with Jojen, and both Bran and Arya meeting Sam. I hate to link to the cesspool most of y'all escaped from, but w.org's book forums still have some value to lurk and this thread was the first google result. |
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The return of agency 
