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Post by Paid Debt Lannister on May 4, 2015 3:32:03 GMT
I'm not sure this deserves a thread of its own... But still, as a huge fan of the Meereen arc in the books (yes guys, we exist), I've read lots of theories as to who is commanding the Sons of The Harpy ("the Harpy" herself, in other words). Most theories point it to being Galazza Galare, the Green Grace, even though Martin leads us to believe it is Hizdahr zo Loraq (who is already imprisoned by Ser Barristan in the books, but many people see him as nothing more than a red herring). Other candidates include Skahaz mo Kandaq "the Shavepate", and Reznak mo Reznak.
However, with the Green Grace, the Shavepate and Reznak all cut from the show, there seems to be only one candidate left... I mean, is Hizdahr zo Loraq the Harpy in the show? If he is not, who do you think it is? Is there even a Harpy at all, or are the Sons of The Harpy rebels without a leader? And finally, do you think this affects book theories (meaning that maybe we are reading too much into the Meereen arc, and the Harpy really was Hizdahr, Barristan got him, and that's it).
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 3:36:32 GMT
Hizdahr will be the leader in the show.
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Post by day dreamer on May 4, 2015 3:54:41 GMT
Hizdahr on the show for sure. I lean with him in the books as well.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 7:02:40 GMT
Nice concise essay on the issue and while I've never been a huge fan of the Harpy story line, I'm pretty keen to see where it goes in the next book since Dany's journey has been one of my favorites even if parts of it really bogged down.
You're really on the money there with Hiz being the only real logical candidate at this point - at least for the show. They've cut a lot of characters you have to wonder about whether or not they ever play any major part in the end-game for the books too (like Aegon). A lot of people insist there's no merit in trying to sort out the book plot based on who has or hasn't been put into the show but I disagree to some extent. If a character and story line is completely cut ... how can they possibly have anything to do with the ending of the story since it's been said many times that D&D admit they are changing a lot of details and plots but ending up in the same place as the books. Well, to me that means the Greyjoys apparently don't mean diddly, nor does Aegon or Arianne or half a dozen other characters I considered fairly important in the books but who do not exist at all in the show.
There's only so much they can streamline without leading us directly to the end-game plot. Eliminating so many characters is a necessary evil for a show - I know - but it also lessens the twists, turns and possibilities a lot too. Looks like Hizdahr will be our Harpy leader!
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 7:36:28 GMT
the green grace is in the show. shes been shown twice now. when an unsullied got murdered in a brothel (that woman is conspicously dressed in green) and in ep 4 when someone random gets murdered in the yard and she acts distressed but calm when the unsullied leave. i'm pretty sure she'll have a convo with Dany this season as well. I think its the Green Grace.  |
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Post by Paid Debt Lannister on May 4, 2015 9:37:51 GMT
Nice concise essay on the issue and while I've never been a huge fan of the Harpy story line, I'm pretty keen to see where it goes in the next book since Dany's journey has been one of my favorites even if parts of it really bogged down. You're really on the money there with Hiz being the only real logical candidate at this point - at least for the show. They've cut a lot of characters you have to wonder about whether or not they ever play any major part in the end-game for the books too (like Aegon). A lot of people insist there's no merit in trying to sort out the book plot based on who has or hasn't been put into the show but I disagree to some extent. If a character and story line is completely cut ... how can they possibly have anything to do with the ending of the story since it's been said many times that D&D admit they are changing a lot of details and plots but ending up in the same place as the books. Well, to me that means the Greyjoys apparently don't mean diddly, nor does Aegon or Arianne or half a dozen other characters I considered fairly important in the books but who do not exist at all in the show. There's only so much they can streamline without leading us directly to the end-game plot. Eliminating so many characters is a necessary evil for a show - I know - but it also lessens the twists, turns and possibilities a lot too. Looks like Hizdahr will be our Harpy leader! Thank you!  And nice point there, I consider Victarion, Aegon and Lady Stoneheart already very important parts of the story, just because of the cliffhangers involving them at the end of aDwD, however, because they are cut, it is true that either they play a small part to the endgame, or their roles can be fulfilled by another (for example, Daario taking 93 ships out of his magic hat in season 4). I am really liking Daenerys' arc this season, it's been my favorite alongside Jon Snow's, but having at least one more character on the mix would already add a lot of ambiguity as to who leads the Sons of The Harpy. I think the Green Grace would be very interesting on TV, a elderly woman all covered who serves as an adviser to Daenerys... She could be friendly and supportive, while Hizdahr is a red herring, it could work very well (I say that considering the Green Grace is the Harpy on the books, which of course we do not know. But even if it is Hizdahr, it's kind of obvious on the show... Unless it ends up being Daario or something completely unexpected like that). |
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Post by Paid Debt Lannister on May 4, 2015 9:39:28 GMT
the green grace is in the show. shes been shown twice now. when an unsullied got murdered in a brothel (that woman is conspicously dressed in green) and in ep 4 when someone random gets murdered in the yard and she acts distressed but calm when the unsullied leave. i'm pretty sure she'll have a convo with Dany this season as well. I think its the Green Grace. :lol3:evul prostitute, I hadn't even realized it was the same one! ... I mean, that was a joke right? I'm really sorry if it wasn't. But if, by any chance, this character insists on showing on-screen, I will say you had a very good guess there. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 11:10:21 GMT
the green grace is in the show. shes been shown twice now. when an unsullied got murdered in a brothel (that woman is conspicously dressed in green) and in ep 4 when someone random gets murdered in the yard and she acts distressed but calm when the unsullied leave. i'm pretty sure she'll have a convo with Dany this season as well. I think its the Green Grace. :lol3:evul prostitute, I hadn't even realized it was the same one! ... I mean, that was a joke right? I'm really sorry if it wasn't. But if, by any chance, this character insists on showing on-screen, I will say you had a very good guess there. i think its pretty obvious shes posing as a prostitute and is actually more than that. she obviously has connections to the sons of the harpy and there have now been two orchestrated deaths in her presence. No, unfortunately i'm not joking. obviously if she was the green grace the character is changed to an almost unrecognizable form. but i wouldn't be surprised. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 11:52:29 GMT
:lol3:evul prostitute, I hadn't even realized it was the same one! ... I mean, that was a joke right? I'm really sorry if it wasn't. But if, by any chance, this character insists on showing on-screen, I will say you had a very good guess there. i think its pretty obvious shes posing as a prostitute and is actually more than that. she obviously has connections to the sons of the harpy and there have now been two orchestrated deaths in her presence. No, unfortunately i'm not joking. obviously if she was the green grace the character is changed to an almost unrecognizable form. but i wouldn't be surprised. Agree. I think she is playing a variation of the Green Grace/Harpy (a Harpy is a female by the way). They were pretty clear in showing the prostitute again, so they are definitely showcasing her. I mentioned this on the other thread but they've probably taken a more obvious route to the mastermind evil woman Harpy on the show because doing the subtlety of the book-Green Grace on screen would take up to much screen time. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 11:57:00 GMT
Interesting theory y'all have about the prostitute. I'm certain we'll see her again since they've made a point to show her deceiving the unsullied soldiers twice now as part of the trap. Now if she shows up at Dany's court as party with important info to tell, wearing a similar green outfit, hair done up instead of loose and a veil of some sort to disguise her face a bit, that would rock! Of course it leaves nothing to the imagination or mystery but we're talking about the show here - they hit you over the head repeatedly with stuff. We're used to that blunt force trauma by now!  |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 11:57:00 GMT
i think its pretty obvious shes posing as a prostitute and is actually more than that. she obviously has connections to the sons of the harpy and there have now been two orchestrated deaths in her presence. No, unfortunately i'm not joking. obviously if she was the green grace the character is changed to an almost unrecognizable form. but i wouldn't be surprised. Agree. I think she is playing a variation of the Green Grace/Harpy (a Harpy is a female by the way). They were pretty clear in showing the prostitute again, so they are definitely showcasing her. I mentioned this on the other thread but they've probably taken a more obvious route to the mastermind evil woman Harpy on the show because doing the subtlety of the book-Green Grace on screen would take up to much screen time. I'm glad someone else sees it. i think there was a backstage photo of her wearing something a bit more fancy. and i recall a trailer where Dany was talking to a woman that wasn't missandei. she is some version of the green grace. |
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Post by Paid Debt Lannister on May 4, 2015 12:40:42 GMT
Agree. I think she is playing a variation of the Green Grace/Harpy (a Harpy is a female by the way). They were pretty clear in showing the prostitute again, so they are definitely showcasing her. I mentioned this on the other thread but they've probably taken a more obvious route to the mastermind evil woman Harpy on the show because doing the subtlety of the book-Green Grace on screen would take up to much screen time. I'm glad someone else sees it. i think there was a backstage photo of her wearing something a bit more fancy. and i recall a trailer where Dany was talking to a woman that wasn't missandei. she is some version of the green grace. Woah! I didn't take it seriously at first because it felt very ridiculous to me that a Ros-like prostitute could replace the Green Grace. But you made very clever observations, and I take my laughter back. It indeed makes sense. Does that character has a name, in credits or casting calls? It makes sense for her to be a Green Grace variation, because as moiaf said, the Harpy is a female symbol... Having a woman command them makes more sense to me. That's one of the reasons I believe the Grace is the Harpy on the books, with Hizdahr being a red herring. If the prostitute is indeed the Harpy, I hope she gets more development. And also, I hope Hizdahr is developed as a red herring as well. Simple plot twists like this are always appreciated, and won't take too much time from the writers, really. There isn't much left for Dany to do anyway, besides marrying Hizdahr and opening the pits, I guess. By the way, am I the only one who does not think Dany will fly to the Dothraki Sea this season? I think Drogon will just burn the hell of Meereen, and Dany will decide to march to Westeros after Daznak's pit. If that is the case, the Meereen arc must end this season... So better hurry giving depth to MeereenRos. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 12:54:04 GMT
I'm glad someone else sees it. i think there was a backstage photo of her wearing something a bit more fancy. and i recall a trailer where Dany was talking to a woman that wasn't missandei. she is some version of the green grace. Woah! I didn't take it seriously at first because it felt very ridiculous to me that a Ros-like prostitute could replace the Green Grace. But you made very clever observations, and I take my laughter back. It indeed makes sense. Does that character has a name, in credits or casting calls? It makes sense for her to be a Green Grace variation, because as moiaf said, the Harpy is a female symbol... Having a woman command them makes more sense to me. That's one of the reasons I believe the Grace is the Harpy on the books, with Hizdahr being a red herring. If the prostitute is indeed the Harpy, I hope she gets more development. And also, I hope Hizdahr is developed as a red herring as well. Simple plot twists like this are always appreciated, and won't take too much time from the writers, really. There isn't much left for Dany to do anyway, besides marrying Hizdahr and opening the pits, I guess. By the way, am I the only one who does not think Dany will fly to the Dothraki Sea this season? I think Drogon will just burn the hell of Meereen, and Dany will decide to march to Westeros after Daznak's pit. If that is the case, the Meereen arc must end this season... So better hurry giving depth to MeereenRos. I do think that Hizzy is in cahoots with her but he is a red herring in that he's not the mastermind behind the attacks, he's just another puppet. They probably do need to enhance/expand (Prostitute/GG) into the storyline so that at least the audience will know that she's not only evil but also cunning and that the attacks are coming from her. From some of the spoilers photos we saw during filming there seem to be some of Drogon's lair in the Dothraki sea, so I do believe that Dany will take flight in Drogon. Also, FireandBlood posted on a different thread a discussion about the opening credits in which the creator mentioned that Meereen will be in the credits next year so, we are not quite done with the Meereen storyline. |
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Post by Paid Debt Lannister on May 4, 2015 13:05:21 GMT
Woah! I didn't take it seriously at first because it felt very ridiculous to me that a Ros-like prostitute could replace the Green Grace. But you made very clever observations, and I take my laughter back. It indeed makes sense. Does that character has a name, in credits or casting calls? It makes sense for her to be a Green Grace variation, because as moiaf said, the Harpy is a female symbol... Having a woman command them makes more sense to me. That's one of the reasons I believe the Grace is the Harpy on the books, with Hizdahr being a red herring. If the prostitute is indeed the Harpy, I hope she gets more development. And also, I hope Hizdahr is developed as a red herring as well. Simple plot twists like this are always appreciated, and won't take too much time from the writers, really. There isn't much left for Dany to do anyway, besides marrying Hizdahr and opening the pits, I guess. By the way, am I the only one who does not think Dany will fly to the Dothraki Sea this season? I think Drogon will just burn the hell of Meereen, and Dany will decide to march to Westeros after Daznak's pit. If that is the case, the Meereen arc must end this season... So better hurry giving depth to MeereenRos. I do think that Hizzy is in cahoots with her but he is a red herring in that he's not the mastermind behind the attacks, he's just another puppet. They probably do need to enhance/expand (Prostitute/GG) into the storyline so that at least the audience will know that she's not only evil but also cunning and that the attacks are coming from her. From some of the spoilers photos we saw during filming there seem to be some of Drogon's lair in the Dothraki sea, so I do believe that Dany will take flight in Drogon. Also, FireandBlood posted on a different thread a discussion about the opening credits in which the creator mentioned that Meereen will be in the credits next year so, we are not quite done with the Meereen storyline. Those are great news. Thanks for sharing them, I did not know!  |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 14:05:12 GMT
Are Shakaz mo Kandaq and Shavepate the same person? What? I am now reading a combination of AFfC and ADwD and didn't know that.
I think that in the books the Harpy is the Green Grace. In the show, Hizdahr.
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Post by Paid Debt Lannister on May 4, 2015 14:13:14 GMT
Are Shakaz mo Kandaq and Shavepate the same person? What? I am now reading a combination of AFfC and ADwD and didn't know that. I think that in the books the Harpy is the Green Grace. In the show, Hizdahr. Yes, they're the same person: awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Skahaz_mo_Kandaq |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 14:21:29 GMT
Are Shakaz mo Kandaq and Shavepate the same person? What? I am now reading a combination of AFfC and ADwD and didn't know that. I think that in the books the Harpy is the Green Grace. In the show, Hizdahr. Yes, they're the same person: awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Skahaz_mo_KandaqWow. I've read ADwD few times before this and didn't catch that. Well, the meereenese names are so difficult to remember. |
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Post by Paid Debt Lannister on May 4, 2015 14:27:03 GMT
Wow. I've read ADwD few times before this and didn't catch that. Well, the meereenese names are so difficult to remember. Yeah, I don't blame you... George should be really high when he came with those names (and some descriptions too... I mean, Yezzan, seriously?) |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 14:32:02 GMT
I just figured they would cut the concept of The Harpy from the show. Hizdahr represents the humanity and reason of Meereen. Otherwise it would be a black and white, evil slavers, good slaves story; and if that were the case there'd be no reason for Dany to stick around. He shows that not all of the nobles are evil, and it would be a mistake to undermine that by making Hizdahr the Harpy in the show.
I didn't realize that the women in green last night was the same in the brothel from the first episode. That's very interesting, and a great catch. I agree that she has a bigger part to play and might be the show's version of the Green Grace.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 14:39:20 GMT
At the moment I am not fully convinced on the Prostitute Harpy theory, but if we see that same whore again at the same time we see the Sons of the Harpy, I will buy it.
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And nice point there, I consider Victarion, Aegon and Lady Stoneheart already very important parts of the story, just because of the cliffhangers involving them at the end of aDwD, however, because they are cut, it is true that either they play a small part to the endgame, or their roles can be fulfilled by another (for example, Daario taking 93 ships out of his magic hat in season 4). I am really liking Daenerys' arc this season, it's been my favorite alongside Jon Snow's, but having at least one more character on the mix would already add a lot of ambiguity as to who leads the Sons of The Harpy. I think the Green Grace would be very interesting on TV, a elderly woman all covered who serves as an adviser to Daenerys... She could be friendly and supportive, while Hizdahr is a red herring, it could work very well (I say that considering the Green Grace is the Harpy on the books, which of course we do not know. But even if it is Hizdahr, it's kind of obvious on the show... Unless it ends up being Daario or something completely unexpected like that).
