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Post by DaveyJoe on Jul 25, 2016 5:34:53 GMT
One of the strengths of ASOIAF/GoT is that most of the characters are three-dimensional, and drawn in shades of grey, but there have always been some consistently villainous characters with few redeeming qualities. Joffrey, the Boltons, Walder Frey, etc. Season 6 saw most of the hero characters defeating their adversaries. Roose Bolton, Ramsay Bolton, Balon Greyjoy, Walder Frey, Black Walder and Lame Lothar, the masters of Yunkai and Astapor, Aliser Thorne, and the High Sparrow all died this year. So that leaves me wondering if the show has a dearth of villains going into season 7.
Cersei could be considered a villain through most of the show, but I found myself rooting for her more than any other character in season 6. Every good drama needs an antagonist or two to keep things interesting, suspenseful, and to give you a reason to root for the heroes. There is the Night King, but we haven't even seen him speak yet, a mute monster is not as interesting as a character like Joffrey. The only character I can really think of is Euron Greyjoy.
Is the show done with standard villains and moving into a territory where established, likable characters come into conflict with each other? Dany is about to invade Westeros, where we assume she'll fight Cersei, a character we've kind of grown sympathetic to after the past year. It's a contentious topic, but there are hints of conflict between Jon and Sansa moving into the next year. Will Sansa find herself manipulated by Littlefinger and perhaps turning a bit villainous herself? Will Jon find himself sucked back into a civil war now that he's been crowned King in the North? What will happen if Tyrion and Jaime meet up again? Are we done with Essos and Daario for good?
What do you guys think?
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Post by day dreamer on Jul 25, 2016 5:49:29 GMT
I think we'll have two very clear cut villains in Littlefinger and Euron. No question with either of them.
Cersei, like you said is a villian, but so many rooted for her blowing up KL even if we lost other characters we like. I think Cersei and Dany* will be grey villains.
*If they go the villain route with Dany on the show, which I'm not 100% they will.
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Post by TheMadQueen on Jul 25, 2016 6:48:13 GMT
one of the things great about the show and books is that, like you said, everybody is 3 dimensional. Different characters who we all like antagonize each other, which is where interesting drama unfolds.
As for villains, Littlefinger, Cersei, Euron, and the Night King.
Littlefinger is creepy and antagonizes the Starks, a fan favorite family. While many viewers are intrigued by his schemes and respect his intelligence, the audience is still nearly universally disgusted by him.
Cersei is "sympathetic" to some. I think she is extremely layered and fleshed out, which may give viewers an attachment to her. I know many of us here enjoy her, but for the most part, the general audience thinks she's an evil bitch. And they're not wrong. She will be a terrible ruler, and antagonize Dany, a clear cut protagonist.
Euron Greyjoy had some charisma, so we might enjoy him more next year. But he is still a murderer, looking to murder again. He will be opposing Yara and Theon, and therefore Dany, so he's in the villain camp.
The Night King is the one with the least personality, the most hype, and the most mystery. Unlike Euron and Littlefinger, I don't want the Night King to drop dead right away. He intrigues me, and I want to know more about him and his powers. Obviously, he is a demon who controls an undead army who slaughters everyone in its path, so he's clearly no protagonist, but he, along with Cersei, are "glamorous" villains and well recieved by viewers.
Sorry that was so long lmfao
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Post by Admin on Jul 25, 2016 7:43:37 GMT
I think we'll have two very clear cut villains in Littlefinger and Euron. No question with either of them. Cersei, like you said is a villian, but so many rooted for her blowing up KL even if we lost other characters we like. I think Cersei and Dany* will be grey villains.
*If they go the villain route with Dany on the show, which I'm not 100% they will. I'm sure the show will just gloss over it but Dany is bringing in Dothraki and Ironborn with her - notorious rapists and killers. With an army like that, there is no way the common people won't suffer and the one who has an army like that that brings all of that with it, is a villain...but just look how they glossed over the wildlings being pretty much the Dothraki of the North, on the show |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2016 13:15:36 GMT
I agree with all mentioned.
Some unexpected villains may be:
Randyll. Sam stole heartsbane and I believe we haven't seen the last of Randyll tarly. The actor was absolutely incredible so I would love to see him again, even if he is a shit person.
Sand snakes. No one likes them so hopefully they come into conflict with someone and they get killed.
Maesters at the citadel. In the books they say the maesters were responsible for the death of the dragons. They could serve to antagonise dany in season 7 and could serve as an interesting undercurrent to Sam's story there.
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Post by kingeomer on Jul 25, 2016 13:22:58 GMT
I agree with all mentioned. Some unexpected villains may be: Randyll. Sam stole heartsbane and I believe we haven't seen the last of Randyll tarly. The actor was absolutely incredible so I would love to see him again, even if he is a shit person. Sand snakes. No one likes them so hopefully they come into conflict with someone and they get killed. Maesters at the citadel. In the books they say the measters were responsible for the death of the dragons. They could serve to antagonise dany in season 7 and could serve as an interesting undercurrent to Sam's story there. I hope the show goes there with the Maesters. Curious to see where Randall ends up. The Tarlys are in service to House Tyrell, correct? Will he align with Dany? I'm sure we see him again? I agree that Littlefinger and Euron are our obvious villians. Cersei will be the villain to be conflicted about...kind of like Tywin...likable but does despicable things. I think we will see folks of Westeros have a conflicting view of Dany...some will see her as a better alternative to Cersei and others will see her and her army as a big problem (as mentioned above-Dothraki and Ironborn are problematic). |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2016 13:27:06 GMT
I agree with all mentioned. Some unexpected villains may be: Randyll. Sam stole heartsbane and I believe we haven't seen the last of Randyll tarly. The actor was absolutely incredible so I would love to see him again, even if he is a shit person. Sand snakes. No one likes them so hopefully they come into conflict with someone and they get killed. Maesters at the citadel. In the books they say the measters were responsible for the death of the dragons. They could serve to antagonise dany in season 7 and could serve as an interesting undercurrent to Sam's story there. I hope the show goes there with the Maesters. Curious to see where Randall ends up. The Tarlys are in service to House Tyrell, correct? Will he align with Dany? I'm sure we see him again? I agree that Littlefinger and Euron are our obvious villians. Cersei will be the villain to be conflicted about...kind of like Tywin...likable but does despicable things. I think we will see folks of Westeros have a conflicting view of Dany...some will see her as a better alternative to Cersei and others will see her and her army as a big problem (as mentioned above-Dothraki and Ironborn are problematic). I think Randyll will come to the aid of Oldtown when Euron tries to take the city. Also an excuse to confront Sam since he knows he will be there. But I don't know, they may not go there in the show. Technically he is allied with Dany because Olenna made the deal so all houses loyal to the Tyrells should follow them. |
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GreenChili
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Post by GreenChili on Jul 25, 2016 22:16:27 GMT
Cersei, a character we've kind of grown sympathetic to after the past year Cersei, sympathetic? I couldn't agree less... well, she lost a daughter without being directly responsible for it, but even her reaction to this did not make me sympathize with her one bit. The Queen of Thorns summarized my feelings towards Cersei calling her the worst person she ever met. Compared to her, the HS was an absolute dream  . I doubt Littlefinger will play the role of big villain, that wouldn't fit his character. The show might follow the road of his strange talk about "I see me on the iron throne with Sansa by my side" though and make those two kind of a dark pair... And Euron... Euron of course is the one we book readers expect to be the next real big villain, so the show might go that way also; but up to now, show Euron to me was kind of a big-talking clown rather than a real evil menace. If they continue his villain arc I hope he is able to give a more convincing role in the future; the bridge scene with Balon wasn't that bad, all after that was rather ridiculous in my eyes. Another candidate could be the faceless men... I don't believe their story arc is over yet, and from the books we know they will play a role in the Sam / Oldtown storyline. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2016 22:54:51 GMT
Cersei, a character we've kind of grown sympathetic to after the past year well, she lost a daughter without being directly responsible for it, but even her reaction to this did not make me sympathize with her one bit. The Queen of Thorns summarized my feelings towards Cersei calling her the worst person she ever met. Compared to her, the HS was an absolute dream . I doubt Littlefinger will play the role of big villain, that wouldn't fit his character. The show might follow the road of his strange talk about "I see me on the iron throne with Sansa by my side" though and make those two kind of a dark pair... And Euron... Euron of course is the one we book readers expect to be the next real big villain, so the show might go that way also; but up to now, show Euron to me was kind of a big-talking clown rather than a real evil menace. If they continue his villain arc I hope he is able to give a more convincing role in the future; the bridge scene with Balon wasn't that bad, all after that was rather ridiculous in my eyes. Another candidate could be the faceless men... I don't believe their story arc is over yet, and from the books we know they will play a role in the Sam / Oldtown storyline. And yet, she has more fans than haters. It's easy for a modern audience to understand why a woman would bristle at being constantly looked over just for being a woman. And when she's villainous, she knocks it out of the park. She doesn't do something lame. She pulls a Walter White move. People love to admire a badass. People also love to admire a strong mother who would do anything for her kids. Also, we know she lost her own mother at a young age, was given a terrifying prophecy when not much older, and had to grow up with only men around her, trying to learn how to be just by watching them. She really is a very tragic figure on the show. And then there's the fact that Lena can show you a whole series of complex emotions in a single subtle look. I find her very sympathetic while also villainous, which is BRILLIANT.  |
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Post by day dreamer on Jul 26, 2016 0:00:05 GMT
Everyone I know says they "love to hate" Cersei. I don't know anyone actively rooting for her death. People (like me) cheer for her to do fucked up things.
I forgot about the Maesters, that would be an interesting thing to bring into the show.
But yeah, there's no way Dany is going to be able to keep all the Iron Born and Dothraki from sacking and raping. She's going to realize the smallfolk will hate her for that.
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Post by Admin on Jul 26, 2016 7:33:29 GMT
Cersei, sympathetic? I couldn't agree less... well, she lost a daughter without being directly responsible for it, but even her reaction to this did not make me sympathize with her one bit. The Queen of Thorns summarized my feelings towards Cersei calling her the worst person she ever met. Compared to her, the HS was an absolute dream . I doubt Littlefinger will play the role of big villain, that wouldn't fit his character. The show might follow the road of his strange talk about "I see me on the iron throne with Sansa by my side" though and make those two kind of a dark pair... And Euron... Euron of course is the one we book readers expect to be the next real big villain, so the show might go that way also; but up to now, show Euron to me was kind of a big-talking clown rather than a real evil menace. If they continue his villain arc I hope he is able to give a more convincing role in the future; the bridge scene with Balon wasn't that bad, all after that was rather ridiculous in my eyes. Another candidate could be the faceless men... I don't believe their story arc is over yet, and from the books we know they will play a role in the Sam / Oldtown storyline. And yet, she has more fans than haters. It's easy for a modern audience to understand why a woman would bristle at being constantly looked over just for being a woman. And when she's villainous, she knocks it out of the park. She doesn't do something lame. She pulls a Walter White move. People love to admire a badass. People also love to admire a strong mother who would do anything for her kids. Also, we know she lost her own mother at a young age, was given a terrifying prophecy when not much older, and had to grow up with only men around her, trying to learn how to be just by watching them. She really is a very tragic figure on the show. And then there's the fact that Lena can show you a whole series of complex emotions in a single subtle look. I find her very sympathetic while also villainous, which is BRILLIANT. I think the show has portrayed Cersei most drastically different from books than any other character. Up until season, I think 4, she was quite villainous but there was always reasoning for her actions. In the last two years the show - in contrast to books - portrayed Margaery as the scheming little thing Cersei thought she was in the books, thus making Cersei's paranoia - which is evil in the books - right on the money in the show. So when Cersei goes to High Sparrow last season she has all the right reasons to do so. Plus they really do play the 'loving mother' card with her a lot, there are dozens of scenes showing Cersei caring for her kids. Not that it is not the case in the books but other mothers in this show didn't get this many moments. So what is Cesei's villainous act in the show? I think it's only killing lady and exploding the Sept thus killing many innocents. Her banging Lancel, killing Robert even (who abused her) all had a reasoning in the show. And in the books wasn't she quite stupid in that she let her temper rule her actions? It's the case in the show too but often times she shows quite the strategic mind, especially in finale |
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Post by DaveyJoe on Jul 26, 2016 8:26:26 GMT
I kind of got the impression that Randyll Tarly was a one-and-done character, as they used him more to build up Sam's character rather than inserting him into the narrative. I wouldn't mind seeing him come back though, the actor did a great job, very commanding presence.
Littlefinger is an interesting one, he's certainly ambitious, and will not hesitate to destroy people that stand in his way, but I still have trouble labeling him as a villain, similar to Tywin Lannister. He's pursuing his own interests in ways that befit the brutal world he lives in. He's betrayed good people, like Ned, but not until after giving them a chance to take power. And now he's in a position to help the Starks. I honestly think that could put him in position for a path to redemption, but there are hints of conflict between Jon and Sansa. Littlefinger is the number one character I'm interested in seeing react to the White Walkers. He's shown a lot of cunning in the Game of Thrones, would he shift his focus from political power to uniting people against a greater threat? Or will he see this as another opportunity to rise up amidst all of the chaos?
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Post by TheMadQueen on Jul 26, 2016 13:54:50 GMT
And yet, she has more fans than haters. It's easy for a modern audience to understand why a woman would bristle at being constantly looked over just for being a woman. And when she's villainous, she knocks it out of the park. She doesn't do something lame. She pulls a Walter White move. People love to admire a badass. People also love to admire a strong mother who would do anything for her kids. Also, we know she lost her own mother at a young age, was given a terrifying prophecy when not much older, and had to grow up with only men around her, trying to learn how to be just by watching them. She really is a very tragic figure on the show. And then there's the fact that Lena can show you a whole series of complex emotions in a single subtle look. I find her very sympathetic while also villainous, which is BRILLIANT. I think the show has portrayed Cersei most drastically different from books than any other character. Up until season, I think 4, she was quite villainous but there was always reasoning for her actions. In the last two years the show - in contrast to books - portrayed Margaery as the scheming little thing Cersei thought she was in the books, thus making Cersei's paranoia - which is evil in the books - right on the money in the show. So when Cersei goes to High Sparrow last season she has all the right reasons to do so. Plus they really do play the 'loving mother' card with her a lot, there are dozens of scenes showing Cersei caring for her kids. Not that it is not the case in the books but other mothers in this show didn't get this many moments. So what is Cesei's villainous act in the show? I think it's only killing lady and exploding the Sept thus killing many innocents. Her banging Lancel, killing Robert even (who abused her) all had a reasoning in the show. And in the books wasn't she quite stupid in that she let her temper rule her actions? It's the case in the show too but often times she shows quite the strategic mind, especially in finale As for the "loving mother" shtick, I think most viewers eventually saw that for what it really was, manipulating and control. Yeah, she loves them and wants them to not die, but while they're alive, she will use them for her own schemes. Also, I think they pushed the "mother" thing so much, so that when we got to where we are now, childless Cersei, we'd be truly terrified of what she's capable of. On and off screen, they've always said the only thing keeping Cersei somewhat human is her love of her children, but once they're dead, she has nothing. The kids were the only thing tethering her to reality. With them all dead, her mind is officially snapped and she doesn't give a fuck what she does or who she hurts, because they have nothing to use against her anymore. Just my 2 cents lol |
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Post by Belle on Jul 26, 2016 13:59:35 GMT
my babe cersei <3
and that flop euron
LF too but on a smaller scale
hmmm can i also use this thread to say that i would be pissed if euron/cersei hooked up? she's way hotter than him imo, out of his league!
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Post by Belle on Jul 26, 2016 14:12:50 GMT
And yet, she has more fans than haters. It's easy for a modern audience to understand why a woman would bristle at being constantly looked over just for being a woman. And when she's villainous, she knocks it out of the park. She doesn't do something lame. She pulls a Walter White move. People love to admire a badass. People also love to admire a strong mother who would do anything for her kids. Also, we know she lost her own mother at a young age, was given a terrifying prophecy when not much older, and had to grow up with only men around her, trying to learn how to be just by watching them. She really is a very tragic figure on the show. And then there's the fact that Lena can show you a whole series of complex emotions in a single subtle look. I find her very sympathetic while also villainous, which is BRILLIANT. Up until season, I think 4, she was quite villainous but there was always reasoning for her actions. In the last two years the show - in contrast to books - portrayed Margaery as the scheming little thing Cersei thought she was in the books, thus making Cersei's paranoia - which is evil in the books - right on the money in the show. So when Cersei goes to High Sparrow last season she has all the right reasons to do so. Plus they really do play the 'loving mother' card with her a lot, there are dozens of scenes showing Cersei caring for her kids. Not that it is not the case in the books but other mothers in this show didn't get this many moments. So what is Cesei's villainous act in the show? I think it's only killing lady and exploding the Sept thus killing many innocents. Her banging Lancel, killing Robert even (who abused her) all had a reasoning in the show. And in the books wasn't she quite stupid in that she let her temper rule her actions? It's the case in the show too but often times she shows quite the strategic mind, especially in finale I actually really disagree with this, I feel like the showrunners have made Cersei more palatable in some regards but I feel like she is one of the very few characters who still has the spirit of her book character. Personally I love both Book and Show Cersei but am more invested in Book Cersei overall (which is probably an unpopular opinion i know). |
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Post by TheMadQueen on Jul 26, 2016 14:37:20 GMT
I think the show has portrayed Cersei most drastically different from books than any other character. Up until season, I think 4, she was quite villainous but there was always reasoning for her actions. In the last two years the show - in contrast to books - portrayed Margaery as the scheming little thing Cersei thought she was in the books, thus making Cersei's paranoia - which is evil in the books - right on the money in the show. So when Cersei goes to High Sparrow last season she has all the right reasons to do so. Plus they really do play the 'loving mother' card with her a lot, there are dozens of scenes showing Cersei caring for her kids. Not that it is not the case in the books but other mothers in this show didn't get this many moments. So what is Cesei's villainous act in the show? I think it's only killing lady and exploding the Sept thus killing many innocents. Her banging Lancel, killing Robert even (who abused her) all had a reasoning in the show. And in the books wasn't she quite stupid in that she let her temper rule her actions? It's the case in the show too but often times she shows quite the strategic mind, especially in finale I actually really disagree with this, I feel like the showrunners have made Cersei more palatable in some regards but I feel like she is one of the very few characters who still has the spirit of her book character. Personally I love both Book and Show Cersei but am more invested in Book Cersei overall (which is probably an unpopular opinion i know). To me, Show!Cersei is what Book!Cersei wishes she was. They have the same personalities, they do the same things, but Show!Cersei carries herself with a little more dignity, and Book!Cersei just stomps around and throws things, then laments about how no one respects her. Show!Cersei is a bit more reserved and quiet and cold, and in the books, she's never gone more than twelve minutes without screaming or crying or throwing something. They're the same character, one just wishes she was a smoother operator, and one actually is a smooth operator. |
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Post by Belle on Jul 26, 2016 14:45:57 GMT
I actually really disagree with this, I feel like the showrunners have made Cersei more palatable in some regards but I feel like she is one of the very few characters who still has the spirit of her book character. Personally I love both Book and Show Cersei but am more invested in Book Cersei overall (which is probably an unpopular opinion i know). To me, Show!Cersei is what Book!Cersei wishes she was. They have the same personalities, they do the same things, but Show!Cersei carries herself with a little more dignity, and Book!Cersei just stomps around and throws things, then laments about how no one respects her. Show!Cersei is a bit more reserved and quiet and cold, and in the books, she's never gone more than twelve minutes without screaming or crying or throwing something. They're the same character, one just wishes she was a smoother operator, and one actually is a smooth operator. eh not really, we only feel that way because we're in her head and she's pretty much always angry and sad and frustrated all the time.but she can definitely compose herself in public. Before AFFC, she was actually quite charming in court too, in ASOS during her wedding with Tyrion even Sansa notes with a little jealousy of how charming Cersei could be: And Jaime in AFFC still thinks that Cersei could still be sooo beautiful and charming when she wants to be: Book Cersei does have a few more violent outbursts but she only really does so with Tyrion and a couple of times with Jaime in AFFC (but thats a result of their relationship seriously being on the rocks). |
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Post by TheMadQueen on Jul 26, 2016 15:08:14 GMT
To me, Show!Cersei is what Book!Cersei wishes she was. They have the same personalities, they do the same things, but Show!Cersei carries herself with a little more dignity, and Book!Cersei just stomps around and throws things, then laments about how no one respects her. Show!Cersei is a bit more reserved and quiet and cold, and in the books, she's never gone more than twelve minutes without screaming or crying or throwing something. They're the same character, one just wishes she was a smoother operator, and one actually is a smooth operator. eh not really, we only feel that way because we're in her head and she's pretty much always angry and sad and frustrated all the time.but she can definitely compose herself in public. Before AFFC, she was actually quite charming in court too, in ASOS during her wedding with Tyrion even Sansa notes with a little jealousy of how charming Cersei could be: And Jaime in AFFC still thinks that Cersei could still be sooo beautiful and charming when she wants to be: Book Cersei does have a few more violent outbursts but she only really does so with Tyrion and a couple of times with Jaime in AFFC (but thats a result of their relationship seriously being on the rocks). Yeah she's definitely a lot more charming and charismatic in the books. She's a lot more fake, while I think in the show she doesn't usually ever bother with facades. But I believe she's less of a hot mess in the show, and less emotional. |
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Post by Belle on Jul 26, 2016 15:15:29 GMT
eh not really, we only feel that way because we're in her head and she's pretty much always angry and sad and frustrated all the time.but she can definitely compose herself in public. Before AFFC, she was actually quite charming in court too, in ASOS during her wedding with Tyrion even Sansa notes with a little jealousy of how charming Cersei could be: And Jaime in AFFC still thinks that Cersei could still be sooo beautiful and charming when she wants to be: Book Cersei does have a few more violent outbursts but she only really does so with Tyrion and a couple of times with Jaime in AFFC (but thats a result of their relationship seriously being on the rocks). Yeah she's definitely a lot more charming and charismatic in the books. She's a lot more fake, while I think in the show she doesn't usually ever bother with facades. But I believe she's less of a hot mess in the show, and less emotional. Ha the fact that Book Cersei is more emotional is precisely the reason why I like her more than Show Cersei. I don't expect Book Cersei to be cool at all when Tommen dies, she'll break down imo and it will be amazing. |
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Post by Admin on Jul 26, 2016 16:57:37 GMT
eh not really, we only feel that way because we're in her head and she's pretty much always angry and sad and frustrated all the time.but she can definitely compose herself in public. Before AFFC, she was actually quite charming in court too, in ASOS during her wedding with Tyrion even Sansa notes with a little jealousy of how charming Cersei could be: And Jaime in AFFC still thinks that Cersei could still be sooo beautiful and charming when she wants to be: Book Cersei does have a few more violent outbursts but she only really does so with Tyrion and a couple of times with Jaime in AFFC (but thats a result of their relationship seriously being on the rocks). Yeah she's definitely a lot more charming and charismatic in the books. She's a lot more fake, while I think in the show she doesn't usually ever bother with facades. But I believe she's less of a hot mess in the show, and less emotional. and less villainous in the show which for me really makes her a different character - in the show she only banged Lancel not the others, in the show Joffrey had Robert's bastards killed, not her and in the show, so far, no sending people for Qyburn to experiment on |
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