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Post by Belle on Jul 23, 2016 3:21:41 GMT
I actually love the Jaime/Cersei romance in the books, its a very tragic and compelling relationship imo. I think its more than just about the Cersei having sex with other people and Jaime being jealous. It's a very realistic depiction of a relationship of falling apart imo, of two people who still love each other (imo) but have also gotten tired and jaded with each other and can't deal with each other anymore. On the show though, the relationship hasn't made any sense to me since season 4. For all the speeches that Jaime makes about loving Cersei on the show in the recent seasons, I never really felt that he loved her. And show Cersei has just come across as extremely indifferent to Jaime imo. In their scenes together in Season 6, I got the feeling that they loved each other a little more, but their love mantras to each other were just cringeworthy imo. But I think its kind of funny, now that Cersei in her own way has kind of done the "fuck everyone who isn't us" thing that Jaime is mad at her. He kind of made his own bed and now he has to lie in it. He said all those things to her in the beginning of the season because she was so heartbroken and vulnerable and now he realizes he just enabled her madness lol. You're right that it's about more than jealousy, but the "She's fucking Osmund, Lancel.. and Moonboy for all I know." Is definitely the catalyst of the breakup, Jaime keeps repeating that line in his head before he burns Cersei's letter. And that moment never happened in the show, so I'm glad that they didn't force a breakup that wouldn't make sense in the context of the show. You raise an interesting point about the Jaime/Cersei isolation leading to the Wildfire moment, and now Jaime has to answer for it. I guess people are mad because someone could have told Jaime about Lancel. Really its kind of weird the High Sparrow never told Jaime. For me, they could have just executed the changes of Jaime/Cersei better imo. I'm not completely mad that they delayed the breakup, but just that all the stuff in between could have been more compelling.
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Post by DaveyJoe on Jul 23, 2016 3:32:14 GMT
You're right that it's about more than jealousy, but the "She's fucking Osmund, Lancel.. and Moonboy for all I know." Is definitely the catalyst of the breakup, Jaime keeps repeating that line in his head before he burns Cersei's letter. And that moment never happened in the show, so I'm glad that they didn't force a breakup that wouldn't make sense in the context of the show. You raise an interesting point about the Jaime/Cersei isolation leading to the Wildfire moment, and now Jaime has to answer for it. I guess people are mad because someone could have told Jaime about Lancel. Really its kind of weird the High Sparrow never told Jaime. For me, they could have just executed the changes of Jaime/Cersei better imo. I'm not completely mad that they delayed the breakup, but just that all the stuff in between could have been more compelling. Yeah the Jaime/Cersei relationship has been kind of back and forth for about two years now, with lots of 'climaxes' of them making up again. The plot is sort of stagnant, and it's been in the service of Jaime's motivation in season 5 and 6, whether or not the execution worked is up for debate. I do think the Wildfire/Mad Queen element is going to be a very good development in a change of their relationship, though.
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Post by Belle on Jul 23, 2016 3:44:18 GMT
I guess people are mad because someone could have told Jaime about Lancel. Really its kind of weird the High Sparrow never told Jaime. For me, they could have just executed the changes of Jaime/Cersei better imo. I'm not completely mad that they delayed the breakup, but just that all the stuff in between could have been more compelling. Yeah the Jaime/Cersei relationship has been kind of back and forth for about two years now, with lots of 'climaxes' of them making up again. The plot is sort of stagnant, and it's been in the service of Jaime's motivation in season 5 and 6, whether or not the execution worked is up for debate. I do think the Wildfire/Mad Queen element is going to be a very good development in a change of their relationship, though. yeah i just wonder how they're gonna do it because honestly to me it makes very little sense for jaime to not kill her in season 7 episode 1 after the sept explosion.
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Post by DaveyJoe on Jul 23, 2016 3:48:00 GMT
Yeah the Jaime/Cersei relationship has been kind of back and forth for about two years now, with lots of 'climaxes' of them making up again. The plot is sort of stagnant, and it's been in the service of Jaime's motivation in season 5 and 6, whether or not the execution worked is up for debate. I do think the Wildfire/Mad Queen element is going to be a very good development in a change of their relationship, though. yeah i just wonder how they're gonna do it because honestly to me it makes very little sense for jaime to not kill her in season 7 episode 1 after the sept explosion. Have you ever wanted to break up with somebody but thought: let's do one more date, hook up, then I'll break up with them at the end of the night? It's happened to me before. Jaime will probably need some time to process his decision to kill his twin/lover.
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Post by Belle on Jul 23, 2016 3:55:03 GMT
yeah i just wonder how they're gonna do it because honestly to me it makes very little sense for jaime to not kill her in season 7 episode 1 after the sept explosion. Have you ever wanted to break up with somebody but thought: let's do one more date, hook up, then I'll break up with them at the end of the night? It's happened to me before. Jaime will probably need some time to process his decision to kill his twin/lover. oh i totally get that lol, but i feel like its just gonna make him look really incompetent if he fails to save KL at the end of season 7 when he's now gonna know about cersei's crazy for awhile. dany's HOTU vision strongly implies Cersei is successful in burning KL
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Post by TheMadQueen on Jul 23, 2016 3:58:41 GMT
Little bit late to the convo, buut... I think Belle and Davey are both completely right. Book Jaime and Cersei are the passionate, sexy sexy lovers, who are completely obsessed with each other. Eventually, they both change and things fizzle. They try to cling to what's left of their relationship, but they realize they are far too different to ever stay together. They love fucking each other, but can barely keep a conversation going. Show Jaime and Cersei are the lovers who just can't shake each other. Everybody has one, that girl or boy who's broken your heart more than you can count, but every time you run into her, you can't help but start to want her back. They're trying to keep things going, because they can't seem to get over each other, but in reality, their relationship is falling apart.
Sorry that's so incoherent lol
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Post by DaveyJoe on Jul 23, 2016 3:59:53 GMT
I like how in-depth discussions about the show are just popping up in all threads now.
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Post by Belle on Jul 23, 2016 4:10:58 GMT
Little bit late to the convo, buut... I think Belle and Davey are both completely right. Book Jaime and Cersei are the passionate, sexy sexy lovers, who are completely obsessed with each other. Eventually, they both change and things fizzle. They try to cling to what's left of their relationship, but they realize they are far too different to ever stay together. They love fucking each other, but can barely keep a conversation going. Show Jaime and Cersei are the lovers who just can't shake each other. Everybody has one, that girl or boy who's broken your heart more than you can count, but every time you run into her, you can't help but start to want her back. They're trying to keep things going, because they can't seem to get over each other, but in reality, their relationship is falling apart. Sorry that's so incoherent lol agreed except show jaime/cersei aren't anywhere near as interesting imo lol. but yeah one of the most interesting things about book jaime/cersei in the later books is to realize how little they actually know each other. i honestly feel like a lot of their relationship in their childhood was about rebelling against tywin and in their adulthood was about rebelling against robert. since a lot of the basis of their relationship was about finding comfort in each other and sort of using each other as a drug (cersei using him as a drug to sort of vicariously live through all the things she was denied because she was a woman and jaime using cersei and thinking of her as perfect goddess because of how disillusioned he became with the kingsguard and aerys). since they've known each other since birth and been codependent they never got to realize and understand the things that significant others do about each other as their relationship evolves. there was very little evolvement in their romantic relationship since they've basically been completely committed and inseparable since childhood. its only with their separation and devolvement of their relationship they realize these things about each other.
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Post by TheMadQueen on Jul 23, 2016 4:17:27 GMT
Little bit late to the convo, buut... I think Belle and Davey are both completely right. Book Jaime and Cersei are the passionate, sexy sexy lovers, who are completely obsessed with each other. Eventually, they both change and things fizzle. They try to cling to what's left of their relationship, but they realize they are far too different to ever stay together. They love fucking each other, but can barely keep a conversation going. Show Jaime and Cersei are the lovers who just can't shake each other. Everybody has one, that girl or boy who's broken your heart more than you can count, but every time you run into her, you can't help but start to want her back. They're trying to keep things going, because they can't seem to get over each other, but in reality, their relationship is falling apart. Sorry that's so incoherent lol agreed except show jaime/cersei aren't anywhere near as interesting imo lol. but yeah one of the most interesting things about book jaime/cersei in the later books is to realize how little they actually know each other. i honestly feel like a lot of their relationship in their childhood was about rebelling against tywin and in their adulthood was about rebelling against robert. since a lot of the basis of their relationship was about finding comfort in each other and sort of using each other as a drug (cersei using him as a drug to sort of vicariously live through all the things she was denied because she was a woman and jaime using cersei and thinking of her as perfect goddess because of how disillusioned he became with the kingsguard and aerys). since they've known each other since birth and been codependent they never got to realize and understand the things that significant others do about each other as their relationship evolves. there was very little evolvement in their romantic relationship since they've basically been completely committed and inseparable since childhood. its only with their separation and devolvement of their relationship they realize these things about each other. Yeah I've always loved the drug metaphor when talking about Jaime and Cersei. And I agree that Jaime and Cersei is probably a lot more satisfying in the books to most, but I can appreciate the romantic tragedy they are trying to portray in the show. Also, I find it hilarious that Jaime and Cersei don't actually really like each other outside of the romantic part. Jaime thinks Cersei's pretty bitchy, and Cersei thinks Jaime's a bonehead, kind of lol. I have very fond memories of that time Cersei got mad at Jaime and told him his dick was small and stormed out lmfao.
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Post by Belle on Jul 23, 2016 4:27:28 GMT
agreed except show jaime/cersei aren't anywhere near as interesting imo lol. but yeah one of the most interesting things about book jaime/cersei in the later books is to realize how little they actually know each other. i honestly feel like a lot of their relationship in their childhood was about rebelling against tywin and in their adulthood was about rebelling against robert. since a lot of the basis of their relationship was about finding comfort in each other and sort of using each other as a drug (cersei using him as a drug to sort of vicariously live through all the things she was denied because she was a woman and jaime using cersei and thinking of her as perfect goddess because of how disillusioned he became with the kingsguard and aerys). since they've known each other since birth and been codependent they never got to realize and understand the things that significant others do about each other as their relationship evolves. there was very little evolvement in their romantic relationship since they've basically been completely committed and inseparable since childhood. its only with their separation and devolvement of their relationship they realize these things about each other. Yeah I've always loved the drug metaphor when talking about Jaime and Cersei. And I agree that Jaime and Cersei is probably a lot more satisfying in the books to most, but I can appreciate the romantic tragedy they are trying to portray in the show. Also, I find it hilarious that Jaime and Cersei don't actually really like each other outside of the romantic part. Jaime thinks Cersei's pretty bitchy, and Cersei thinks Jaime's a bonehead, kind of lol. I have very fond memories of that time Cersei got mad at Jaime and told him his dick was small and stormed out lmfao. haha yes even their AGOT conversations show that they don't really agree on a lot of things. and a lot of times jaime just shuts her up by ripping off her clothes when they argue. its always been a dysfunctional relationship, but before they were at least compatible as they both had common goals against tywin and robert. they've always loved each other but never actually liked each other imo.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2016 4:43:13 GMT
I don't think Jaime and cersei were meant to spend this much time together. That's part of the problem.
I love Jaime in the book, but the show version is sooooo different. I don't like it. Mainly because they seen to make him book Jaime when its convenient to them. I'm excited about where they will go in season 7 though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2016 11:52:18 GMT
I like both versions. I think the show version is a more realistic relationship between two grown people who've known each other for 40 years. Their story and plot works better in the books and has fewer WTFs...Jaime in Dorne was a mistake...but I very much like the way the Sept explosion and coronation played out. It's sadder for him to kill her if he really, truly loves her warts and all. In the books, it's more like he didn't really love her once he knew the real her.
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Post by Father of Dragons on Jul 23, 2016 12:01:37 GMT
I like both versions. I think the show version is a more realistic relationship between two grown people who've known each other for 40 years. Their story and plot works better in the books and has fewer WTFs...Jaime in Dorne was a mistake...but I very much like the way the Sept explosion and coronation played out. It's sadder for him to kill her if he really, truly loves her warts and all. In the books, it's more like he didn't really love her once he knew the real her. Yeah, I could see book Jaime killing her without any empathy because he's much more fed up of her there, but in the show it would be far more emotional because it seems he definitely loves her. It's also a good thing that they left out the valonqar bit from the show because it would come across much better if it was out of emotion rather than just fulfilling a prophecy.
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Post by Belle on Jul 23, 2016 12:48:25 GMT
I like both versions. I think the show version is a more realistic relationship between two grown people who've known each other for 40 years. Their story and plot works better in the books and has fewer WTFs...Jaime in Dorne was a mistake...but I very much like the way the Sept explosion and coronation played out. It's sadder for him to kill her if he really, truly loves her warts and all. In the books, it's more like he didn't really love her once he knew the real her. Yeah, I could see book Jaime killing her without any empathy because he's much more fed up of her there, but in the show it would be far more emotional because it seems he definitely loves her. It's also a good thing that they left out the valonqar bit from the show because it would come across much better if it was out of emotion rather than just fulfilling a prophecy. Disagree about book Jaime killing her without emotion, killing her will destroy him IMO They probably cut valonqar because they wanted Cersei's death to be more shocking but keeping it in would have further explained cersei's hatred of Tyrion
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2016 13:03:32 GMT
I think Jaime will be emotionally destroyed either way, but why matters to me. I think it would be more noble if he truly loves her than it would be if he loved her in a more selfish and symbolic way. It's going to be extremely powerful either way.
I think there's still a chance they could include the valonqar bit. They have a habit of revealing pieces of prophecies as they are needed. This makes sense in a visual form, since you can't flip back to chapter 2 to reread the prophesy the way you can while reading. I agree that it would have helped with Cersei's seemingly unreasonable hatred of Tyrion, but it also does telegraph her death.
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Post by Belle on Jul 23, 2016 13:37:23 GMT
I think Jaime will be emotionally destroyed either way, but why matters to me. I think it would be more noble if he truly loves her than it would be if he loved her in a more selfish and symbolic way. It's going to be extremely powerful either way. I think there's still a chance they could include the valonqar bit. They have a habit of revealing pieces of prophecies as they are needed. This makes sense in a visual form, since you can't flip back to chapter 2 to reread the prophesy the way you can while reading. I agree that it would have helped with Cersei's seemingly unreasonable hatred of Tyrion, but it also does telegraph her death. i We're gonna have to wait and see I guess. But I really there is sone twist or even nuances there that we can't predict right now because Jaime killing her because of a second wildfire play is kind of boring IMO. I recognize the similarities between aerys and cersei but I hope cersei's moment doesn't completely match aerys, I don't want to see Cersei say "let her be the queen of charred bones and ashes" or whatever
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Post by TheMadQueen on Jul 23, 2016 14:52:49 GMT
I don't think the Valonqar prophecy is needed to justify Cersei's hatred of Tyrion. He "killed" her mother, he embarrasses and mocks her every chance he gets, he actively works against her when he's the Hand, he insults her children, he "killed" Joffrey, he killed Tywin, he drove a wedge between her and Jaime.
Hell I'd probably hate him too if I was her.
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Post by Karl Katze on Jul 24, 2016 13:46:43 GMT
Favorite relationship5. Brienne x Tormund 4. Theon x Yara 3. Brienne x Jaime 2. Bran x Meera 1. Arya x Lady Crane Lovely seeing my favorite relationship on this list and so close to the top too! Sadly, life was kicking me in the ass when voting was going on.
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Post by Admin on Jul 24, 2016 14:56:57 GMT
Lovely seeing my favorite relationship on this list and so close to the top too! Sadly, life was kicking me in the ass when voting was going on. I hope things are better now!
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Post by Karl Katze on Jul 24, 2016 15:20:44 GMT
Lovely seeing my favorite relationship on this list and so close to the top too! Sadly, life was kicking me in the ass when voting was going on. I hope things are better now! Aww, thank you so much, you're so sweet!
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