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Post by DaveyJoe on Jul 8, 2017 4:46:01 GMT
My favorite arc in ADWD was Dany's, but they did a poor job adapting Dany's identity struggle. Aside from Mossador they didn't give her any difficult ruling decisions, instead choosing to focus on the Sons of the Harpy as an external force with the death of Barristan, which of course allowed Dany to sic her dragons on somebody. With the fighting pits debate, they always portray Dany as having the moral high-ground and the fighting pits as being barbaric. They never show that Dany might just be close-minded toward a culture she doesn't understand. They just tiptoe around the basic plot elements from the book, but they're too timid to show Dany in a bad light.
The show has a big obstacle because so much of Dany's complexity is internalized in the books. Unfortunately, I don't think they've done a very good job matching the book character's depth and have gone more for the easy bad ass Khaleesi approach, I mean, I understand, it works. Khaleei has a ton of show fans, and "break the wheel" moments are great for marketing. Show Dany's best moments are with Daario and Jorah, but they are few and far between.
After The Red Wedding, I think the showrunners decided to cater more to show viewers than book fans, who want their characters grey, because Dany and Tyrion are both significantly white-washed in the second half of the show. I understand it. Casual viewers are turned off by the darkness of certain characters, and often criticize the show for 'bad guys winning over and over.' I know lots of people threatened to quit watching after The Red Wedding and Oberyn's death, so they've made Dany and Tyrion hero characters and minimized their flaws so it's easier to root for them, even though many of us find them much less interesting than their book counterparts. I think any perceived development with those two characters is a result of projecting due to our knowledge of the books. The show has taken a tell, don't show approach with Tyrion and Dany and have them talk about their state of minds, when they should be having them committing more morally questionable acts. I've accepted the fact that the show will be more entertaining and less challenging than the books are, but Tyrion and Dany are both very shallowly drawn characters in the latter half of the show.
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Post by Father of Dragons on Jul 8, 2017 11:30:59 GMT
Tyrion at least messed up last season when he tried to negotiate with the Masters, and got plenty criticism from Grey Worm and Missandei. But that seems to have been done more for plot reasons rather than character reasons. As a character he's basically been the same since Tywin died, if not before.
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Post by DaveyJoe on Jul 8, 2017 13:21:11 GMT
Tyrion at least messed up last season when he tried to negotiate with the Masters, and got plenty criticism from Grey Worm and Missandei. But that seems to have been done more for plot reasons rather than character reasons. As a character he's basically been the same since Tywin died, if not before. Yeah, as I was thinking about it all, it occurred to me that everything is narrative-driven with Tyrion and Dany's stories in the show. It makes sense for Jon, but Tyrion and Dany were much more driven by character development in book five. It's a shame for me as somebody who really cherishes the grey, conflicted nature of George's characterization, but we know that plenty of book readers found book five to be a chore, so who knows how a more faithful adaptation would have affected the show's success. I'm honestly kind of worried that the final seasons will be too focused on action and lacking in character development, especially as George seems to be hands-off with the show now. Season 6 proved that they are capable of nailing the spectacle but struggle with pacing and subtlety in the writing. It's fine to streamline the characters a bit, but the problem is that the show has whittled down to such a small cast, most of the interesting characters are dead. If we lose Cersei and Littlefinger and season 7 is just dragons and Jon fighting zombies, I'm going to be a little disappointed.
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Post by kingeomer on Jul 8, 2017 13:30:02 GMT
My favorite arc in ADWD was Dany's, but they did a poor job adapting Dany's identity struggle. Aside from Mossador they didn't give her any difficult ruling decisions, instead choosing to focus on the Sons of the Harpy as an external force with the death of Barristan, which of course allowed Dany to sic her dragons on somebody. With the fighting pits debate, they always portray Dany as having the moral high-ground and the fighting pits as being barbaric. They never show that Dany might just be close-minded toward a culture she doesn't understand. They just tiptoe around the basic plot elements from the book, but they're too timid to show Dany in a bad light. The show has a big obstacle because so much of Dany's complexity is internalized in the books. Unfortunately, I don't think they've done a very good job matching the book character's depth and have gone more for the easy bad ass Khaleesi approach, I mean, I understand, it works. Khaleei has a ton of show fans, and "break the wheel" moments are great for marketing. Show Dany's best moments are with Daario and Jorah, but they are few and far between. After The Red Wedding, I think the showrunners decided to cater more to show viewers than book fans, who want their characters grey, because Dany and Tyrion are both significantly white-washed in the second half of the show. I understand it. Casual viewers are turned off by the darkness of certain characters, and often criticize the show for 'bad guys winning over and over.' I know lots of people threatened to quit watching after The Red Wedding and Oberyn's death, so they've made Dany and Tyrion hero characters and minimized their flaws so it's easier to root for them, even though many of us find them much less interesting than their book counterparts. I think any perceived development with those two characters is a result of projecting due to our knowledge of the books. The show has taken a tell, don't show approach with Tyrion and Dany and have them talk about their state of minds, when they should be having them committing more morally questionable acts. I've accepted the fact that the show will be more entertaining and less challenging than the books are, but Tyrion and Dany are both very shallowly drawn characters in the latter half of the show.100% agree with this, especially the bolded. Dany seems to go from speech, badass dragon moment with the rare, tender character moments in between. As others have mentioned, her saying goodbye to Jorah was an excellent scene because she actually seemed like a human being in that scene. Show wise, I can't say that I've been too invested in Dany as a character since season 1..part of that is Emilia's acting but also I think the writing does her no favors. Dinklage has won two Emmys for his acting and his character other then finding Dany, really has not had an arc since the end of season 4. As much as I hated "Poor Me" Tyrion in ADWD, it made sense that the character would be brought low after his last conversation with Jaime and killing his father and then we see him scheming to try to get Casterly Rock. Like DaveyJoe said, both Dany and Tyrion have been shallowly drawn in the latter half of the show. With a show that is literally racing towards it's endgame, I don't expect them to be morally gray or show any more depth as the episodes wind down.
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Post by DaveyJoe on Jul 8, 2017 13:44:23 GMT
It's kind of ludicrous how little Tyrion's patricide seemed to affect him in the show. He makes a joke out of it when he meets Dany. The character deserves some type of catharsis after what happened in season 4. It must be frustrating to do constant one-liners as an actor, I think of his scene crying with Shae after Blackwater, and I understand why he seemed so shocked to win his Emmy after season five. As the show's budget increased, we got more scenes of Dragons tearing shit up, and fewer character moments. When all is said and done, and we can binge the entire show, the pacing of season 5-8 are going to seem like lightspeed compared to 1-4.
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Post by Zadeth on Jul 8, 2017 16:10:04 GMT
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Post by TheMadQueen on Jul 8, 2017 16:33:53 GMT
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Post by TheMadQueen on Jul 8, 2017 18:33:14 GMT
Greek promo
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Post by kingeomer on Jul 9, 2017 12:38:26 GMT
It's kind of ludicrous how little Tyrion's patricide seemed to affect him in the show. He makes a joke out of it when he meets Dany. The character deserves some type of catharsis after what happened in season 4. It must be frustrating to do constant one-liners as an actor, I think of his scene crying with Shae after Blackwater, and I understand why he seemed so shocked to win his Emmy after season five. As the show's budget increased, we got more scenes of Dragons tearing shit up, and fewer character moments. When all is said and done, and we can binge the entire show, the pacing of season 5-8 are going to seem like lightspeed compared to 1-4. Considering how much it affected him in the books and it would have been a terrific response for Dinklage to play on screen. He's as close to the "leading actor" the show has and he has really spent two seasons on it not doing much. It doesn't surprise me that the bulk of promotion has fallen to the Stark girls, Kit, Emilia, and Lena because they, for the past two seasons, seem to have a more vital role then Tyrion does. His win in season 5 surprised me as well. If anything he should have won for season 4. And again, you are right, the pacing for seasons 5-8 are going to seem like lightspeed compared to seasons 1-4. It almost seems like two different shows... It also seemed ludicrous to me how fast Dany accepted Tyrion into her inner circle. Considering that his brother was the one who stabbed her father in the back. But the show quickly assigned him the replacement Barristan in her circle after they killed Barristan off, so there's that.
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Post by Singer of Death on Jul 9, 2017 19:41:18 GMT
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on Jul 9, 2017 21:50:18 GMT
It's kind of ludicrous how little Tyrion's patricide seemed to affect him in the show. He makes a joke out of it when he meets Dany. The character deserves some type of catharsis after what happened in season 4. It must be frustrating to do constant one-liners as an actor, I think of his scene crying with Shae after Blackwater, and I understand why he seemed so shocked to win his Emmy after season five. As the show's budget increased, we got more scenes of Dragons tearing shit up, and fewer character moments. When all is said and done, and we can binge the entire show, the pacing of season 5-8 are going to seem like lightspeed compared to 1-4. Considering how much it affected him in the books and it would have been a terrific response for Dinklage to play on screen. He's as close to the "leading actor" the show has and he has really spent two seasons on it not doing much. It doesn't surprise me that the bulk of promotion has fallen to the Stark girls, Kit, Emilia, and Lena because they, for the past two seasons, seem to have a more vital role then Tyrion does. His win in season 5 surprised me as well. If anything he should have won for season 4. And again, you are right, the pacing for seasons 5-8 are going to seem like lightspeed compared to seasons 1-4. It almost seems like two different shows... It also seemed ludicrous to me how fast Dany accepted Tyrion into her inner circle. Considering that his brother was the one who stabbed her father in the back. But the show quickly assigned him the replacement Barristan in her circle after they killed Barristan off, so there's that.Still not over that... Sky Atlantic in the UK is showing GoT repeats because it's the run up to the premiere. Happened to turn on an episode of Season 5... I thought perhaps my memories of it were unfair and I was unduly harsh on it when I first saw it...but nope, stand by my opinions. Season 5 was dreadful, full of illogical plot leaps and *shocking moments* rather than attempting to be coherent... the episode I caught was 5 09. Terrible, terrible. The only saving grace was some great acting by Kerry Ingram. I've been yelling at the TV for the last hour
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Post by DaveyJoe on Jul 9, 2017 21:58:20 GMT
I'm not ashamed to admit that I wanted to see Peter Dinklage vomit on a whore.
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Post by TheMadQueen on Jul 9, 2017 22:23:57 GMT
I like the comparison that Season 5 was GoT's Phantom Menace. It was, in general, weak, because it was lots of travelogues and buildup to later things. It was season six part one, basically.
Despite it all, there were some good moments. The Walk of Shame comes to mind, as do Hardhome and Daznak's Pit.
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on Jul 9, 2017 22:51:48 GMT
I dont think Season 5 was bad because it was travelogues and set-ups for S6. I think it was bad because the plot had me yelling WTF is this shit?! at the TV far too much. Stupid character decisions, ridiculous plot conveniences, total 180's...I'm glad I decided to come back for season 6 because it was a huge improvement, but damn Season 5 was almost enough to make me quit. Everything Dorne still makes me queasy... Yes there were some good parts. Though I don't count Daznak's Pit as part of that. It was a pretty spectacle but that's all. Didn't meet much in terms if plot. The sons of the Harpy's attack didn't make much sense at all (and still doesn't, really). I guess Hardhome was objectively good, but I didn't much care for it, in the same way I didn't care for Watchers on the Wall. Big action sequences aren't my thing tbh, but I can appreciate it was technically very good.
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Post by DaveyJoe on Jul 9, 2017 22:52:49 GMT
I think Season 5 is better than season 6 honestly. If and when we have TWOW to compare it to I think we'll realize how poor the writing in Season 6 really is. Season 5 had its issues but the writing and pacing were much more consistent. I'll take a slow season with good writing over a clusterfuck with three awesome episodes. I think we let the hype of new content and Hold the Door + Long May She Reign overwhelm us, but Season 5 does not deserve to be the punching bag of this show.
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Post by TheMadQueen on Jul 9, 2017 23:55:45 GMT
I don't think S5 was objectively "bad" at all, it featured one of my favorite storylines (I'm sure you can guess which one). I don't think the writing was noticeably worse, it was just kind of meh. Brienne sits around for a season staring at a window. Meh. Dorne. Meh. Stannis spends all season planning for an off screen battle that he gets his ass kicked in. Meh. I really think s6 was strong tho, and not just cause if Septaggedon .
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Post by Singer of Death on Jul 10, 2017 1:37:19 GMT
I'm not ashamed to admit that I wanted to see Peter Dinklage vomit on a whore. If they put Penny in the show, then i will have no problem with that.
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Post by kingeomer on Jul 10, 2017 10:55:28 GMT
Considering how much it affected him in the books and it would have been a terrific response for Dinklage to play on screen. He's as close to the "leading actor" the show has and he has really spent two seasons on it not doing much. It doesn't surprise me that the bulk of promotion has fallen to the Stark girls, Kit, Emilia, and Lena because they, for the past two seasons, seem to have a more vital role then Tyrion does. His win in season 5 surprised me as well. If anything he should have won for season 4. And again, you are right, the pacing for seasons 5-8 are going to seem like lightspeed compared to seasons 1-4. It almost seems like two different shows... It also seemed ludicrous to me how fast Dany accepted Tyrion into her inner circle. Considering that his brother was the one who stabbed her father in the back. But the show quickly assigned him the replacement Barristan in her circle after they killed Barristan off, so there's that.Still not over that... Sky Atlantic in the UK is showing GoT repeats because it's the run up to the premiere. Happened to turn on an episode of Season 5... I thought perhaps my memories of it were unfair and I was unduly harsh on it when I first saw it...but nope, stand by my opinions. Season 5 was dreadful, full of illogical plot leaps and *shocking moments* rather than attempting to be coherent... the episode I caught was 5 09. Terrible, terrible. The only saving grace was some great acting by Kerry Ingram. I've been yelling at the TV for the last hour Still not over Barristan myself. I'm not ashamed to admit that I wanted to see Peter Dinklage vomit on a whore. If they put Penny in the show, then i will have no problem with that. It would be nice to see Penny but I'm not getting my hopes up for that. As for Season 5...it wasn't one of my favorite seasons. Neither was 4 though. Both seasons had some stellar moments and stand out episodes ( Oberyn, Hardholme as a stand out episode, Walk of Shame as a stand out moment, etc...) I've not done a re-watch of Thrones and I might after the show is complete. Either watching the whole show as close to back to back as I can will give me a greater appreciation of those seasons or confirm my original opinion of them.
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Post by boojam on Jul 10, 2017 13:50:03 GMT
The Dothraki guard , Dany's screen right, looks like the main khalasar 'captain' left (there are three) bowing to Dany at the end of episode 4. He kindof looks like Qhono (Staz Nair ) No indication Ornela (Hannah John-Kamen) is back? Never liked , on the show, that , unlike the books, there isn't one inner circle Dothraki.
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Post by Father of Dragons on Jul 10, 2017 17:00:59 GMT
To be fair on season 5 (and given that I'm a big fan of both Stannis and Barristan that's not an easy thing for me to say), season 6 also had more than a few dumb moments concerning both plot and characters.
A lot of the early stuff in King’s Landing is very repetitive. Arya’s plot in the later episodes alternates between bad to utterly nonsensical. Everything about the Kingsmoot and Euron besides his introduction is thoroughly underwhelming (direct quote: “I’m going to build that fleet, and I’m going to gallivant right over and give it to Daenerys Targaryen, along with my big cock!”). There are about four near-identical Dany speeches where she says practically the same things. And however bad the death of Barristan was, they killed the Blackfish - frequently described as a legend and great warrior - off-screen, and that is unforgivable.
Every season has bad moments, but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad season.
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