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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2016 1:42:48 GMT
One of the scenes that really surprised me is one I'm left pondering about today as I have discussed it at length with a few in the post episode discussion - the scene between Cersei and Tommen.  I really wasn't expecting to like much if any of the King's Landing stuff until we at least get to where confrontation with the Sparrows starts to actually go down - but I absolutely loved the scene between Tommen and his Mother. It was very moving and Dean-Charles Chapman's acting was top notch paired with Lena who is always fabulous. I saw raw emotion in Tommen that made me actually feel for him. Now I am left with some questions and doubts regarding where Cersei's head is at in that scene as well as going forward from here. Was Cersei aloof and reserved in front of Tommen because she's truly upset with him or something else? Did Cersei's decision to 'obey' the orders to stay behind and not attend Myrcella's funeral indicate she's giving up or something else? What was all the obsessive touching of the lion necklace (I think that was Myrcella's) and plucking a string from her sleeve about? Is this some hint or symbolism that Cersei is "plotting" or somehow "coming unraveled at the seams" metaphorically? And then there was the great dialogue from Tommen: This was a rare display of true Lannister from Tommen and most of us really liked that bit from him about how he should have had them all executed. That was great! Cersei's obvious change of attitude from aloof and stand offish to close and loving with him was intriguing. Some have suggested she's sad and accepting that Tommen is a weak king and probably going to die, or even worse, she's considering ways to plot against him because she now believes the prophecy and he's just going to die anyways. Still others believe Cersei is on the verge of reverting back to 'crazy mode' Cersei and scheming of ways to further take advantage of Tommen's weakness and keep fighting the prophecy until she's lost everything including Tommen and Jaime. What do you think about Cersei right now and in the episodes to come? I personally think Cersei is at a dangerous point where she's deciding what she's going to do. I think the scene with Frankengregor smashing that idiot peasant's head against the wall was foreshadowing of "revenge-mode Cersei" on the rise. The dangerous part is whether or not Cersei is still fully believing the prophecy is coming true because if so, she's a woman with nothing to lose - she knows it's already all lost. That's when people become the most dangerous of all and willing to do anything. What will she do next? |
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Post by King Tommen on May 3, 2016 2:10:49 GMT
I think they needed to have Cersei mend things with Tommen in order to steel herself for her later developments in the season. We know that Margaery emerges at mid-season solidly in the Faith's camp and she's brought Tommen along for the ride.
They need to give her a reason to fight not just against the Faith but for Tommen's soul. He's opened up to her here so that she can believe that he's still salvageable as her son. Once Margaery has her hooks in him again though, he's going to obviously be swayed to her side which is going to give her the maximum motivation to go nuts on the Faith and the Tyrell's who she hates already but now have her sole surviving child in their grips as well. She'll have nothing to live for if she doesn't win that fight so she won't hold anything back.
And although I wasn't quite on board with it at first, I think we will see Tommen go down late this season by some means which will probably be the tipping point for Cersei. That's when the shit will really hit the fan.
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Post by archiechvyalthan on May 3, 2016 2:11:27 GMT
Another great scene for Cersei.
The way she keeps avoiding Tommen in the scene, the way she keeps her distance - I don't think it's because she feels scorned. She has convinced herself he is a dead child, that the prophecy is real. Tommen is all she has left in the world, but he is a walking ghost and she knows it. So whether she is conscious of it or not, she treats him like one. I don't even think Cersei was listening at what he was saying at all.
So yes, I agree with you. This is the seed of madness that we're witnessing. Actually, all of the King's Landing scenes this episode work so well because they plant the seed of the anarchy to come. Cersei is about to make her move, and so is the High Sparrow. Everyone else -including Tommen- is just caught in between.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2016 2:28:57 GMT
I think they needed to have Cersei mend things with Tommen in order to steel herself for her later developments in the season. We know that Margaery emerges at mid-season solidly in the Faith's camp and she's brought Tommen along for the ride. They need to give her a reason to fight not just against the Faith but for Tommen's soul. He's opened up to her here so that she can believe that he's still salvageable as her son. Once Margaery has her hooks in him again though, he's going to obviously be swayed to her side which is going to give her the maximum motivation to go nuts on the Faith and the Tyrell's who she hates already but now have her sole surviving child in their grips as well. She'll have nothing to live for if she doesn't win that fight so she won't hold anything back. And although I wasn't quite on board with it at first, I think we will see Tommen go down late this season by some means which will probably be the tipping point for Cersei. That's when the shit will really hit the fan. Good point to remember there. Cersei is most likely thinking of what will happen when Margaery is eventually released. She already knows Tommen is fully under Margaery's spell and therefore the Tyrells. But even she can't predict the force to come once Margaery decides to join the Faith and take Tommen with her. I am very anxious about that revelation for Cersei. Another great scene for Cersei. The way she keeps avoiding Tommen in the scene, the way she keeps her distance - I don't think it's because she feels scorned. She has convinced herself he is a dead child, that the prophecy is real. Tommen is all she has left in the world, but he is a walking ghost and she knows it. So whether she is conscious of it or not, she treats him like one. I don't even think Cersei was listening at what he was saying at all. So yes, I agree with you. This is the seed of madness that we're witnessing. Actually, all of the King's Landing scenes this episode work so well because they plant the seed of the anarchy to come. Cersei is about to make her move, and so is the High Sparrow. Everyone else -including Tommen- is just caught in between. I considered if this might be why she stayed distant from him... she's afraid to get close to him again because she's convinced herself he's a goner already. Her change of heart to move close to him and look at him lovingly and hug him again at the end suggested Motherly forgiveness but I wonder how much of that was forced on her part or resignation. She does love her children and he's all she has left as you said. She has to be coming unglued about the prophecy and it's eating away at her. |
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Post by TheMadQueen on May 3, 2016 3:35:35 GMT
Cersei really has been an enigma to me so far. She seems to be actually very despondent right now. She seems to be actually broken and unsure of her place in the world. She seems to be grieving. But with Cersei, nothing is ever as it seems.
I think, while actually really sad, she's also just planning. Her fiddling with the thread from her dress and her necklace, her glaring out across the city, she's drinking again. Lena's always giving Cersei kind of a nervous tic. Pacing, always wringing her hands and rolling her eyes. Lena is phenomenal with body language, and it is very telling for Cersei. To me, the way she looks makes me think the wheels are turning up there. She's plotting like she's never plotted before.
She's become even more aloof than before, bossing her men around then turning around and storming off. The first time Tommen comes to see her, she flat out ignores him at first. In the books, there's a line I believe Jaime says, where he says something to the affect of "Cersei always waits for people to come to her." I think that's what she was doing in this scene. I don't think she was ever gonna stay mad at Tommen, she was just waiting for him to apologize first.
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Post by Enid on May 3, 2016 8:57:45 GMT
There was something weird in her scene with Tommen, a distance she had never shown before in front of her kids, but I don't think she will plot against him. Whatever happens, he is her last son, the only one alive. IMO, Cersei will do whatever it takes to protect him, but she is going to be smarter and more calm about it, she has to after what happened last season. She acted rashly, was so focused on the prophecy and getting rid of Margaery she didn't realize what her actions really meant until she was arrested and forced to parade naked through the streets. The decisions she made exploded in her face big time, and even though Margaery was arrested, she also lost all her power and now Kevan is in charge of the Lannister forces in KL and the Sparrows control the city.
A more aloof Cersei means a more dangerous one, most of Cersei's mistakes and bad decisions were motivated by her fear, if she is no longer being ruled by her emotions, who knows what she will do.
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Post by Zadeth on May 3, 2016 10:37:36 GMT
I hope she burns the Tower of the Hand in the show. Mad Queen HYPE. She is definitely becoming unravelled. Cersei thrives on having power, and she's getting been getting screwed over recently in terms of power - from being imprisoned, and her subsequent walk of shame, to Margaery taking Tommen from her, to not being able to attend Myrcella's funeral because Tommen said so. Couple that with the prophecy from Maggie the Frog seemingly coming true, she should have taken Melara's advice and forgot about it  , she is slowly losing it completely. I hope Kevan pushes his demands as in AFFC in the upcoming episodes, to be named Hand and Regent, to further see Cersei become unravelled. Not to mention when Margaery gets released, I assume in a few episodes time, that will further alienate her from Tommen. |
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Post by TheMadQueen on May 3, 2016 12:07:57 GMT
I hope she burns the Tower of the Hand in the show. Mad Queen HYPE. She is definitely becoming unravelled. Cersei thrives on having power, and she's getting been getting screwed over recently in terms of power - from being imprisoned, and her subsequent walk of shame, to Margaery taking Tommen from her, to not being able to attend Myrcella's funeral because Tommen said so. Couple that with the prophecy from Maggie the Frog seemingly coming true, she should have taken Melara's advice and forgot about it , she is slowly losing it completely. I hope Kevan pushes his demands as in AFFC in the upcoming episodes, to be named Hand and Regent, to further see Cersei become unravelled. Not to mention when Margaery gets released, I assume in a few episodes time, that will further alienate her from Tommen. MAD QUEEN HYPE!!! If she doesn't burn something this year I may lose my shit. |
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Post by day dreamer on May 3, 2016 12:51:55 GMT
I can't wait until we have crazy Cersei back. I agree her distance was because she knows Tommen is a dead man walking. I'm really just looking forward to all of her batshitness from AFFC this year. I hope they don't sugar coat it.
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Post by Belle on May 3, 2016 14:06:43 GMT
cersei's scenes have been decent/good so far. but lol i really hope this isn't going in the same direction as stannis in season 5, where the twist and SHOCK is just completely thrown at us, because that cersei/tommen scene gave me the same vibe as the stannis/shireen scene from last year tbh.
i need cersei's madness to make sense and be organically built on character development rather than just simply shock value
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2016 14:49:36 GMT
cersei's scenes have been decent/good so far. but lol i really hope this isn't going in the same direction as stannis in season 5, where the twist and SHOCK is just completely thrown at us, because that cersei/tommen scene gave me the same vibe as the stannis/shireen scene from last year tbh. i need cersei's madness to make sense and be organically built on character development rather than just simply shock value I agree with what you are saying.  "Madness to make sense" is a wonderful paradox, though.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2016 17:30:50 GMT
cersei's scenes have been decent/good so far. but lol i really hope this isn't going in the same direction as stannis in season 5, where the twist and SHOCK is just completely thrown at us, because that cersei/tommen scene gave me the same vibe as the stannis/shireen scene from last year tbh. i need cersei's madness to make sense and be organically built on character development rather than just simply shock value I agree with what you are saying. "Madness to make sense" is a wonderful paradox, though. Well 'shock value' and Cersei are pretty much an oxymoron anyways since we the audience actually expect it from her whereas Stannis was supposed to be solid and unwavering in personality so it came across as much more shocking when he finally did agree to burn Shireen even though all the signs were there ... the foreshadowing was heavy and all, we still didn't think he'd actually do it. He had told everyone including Melisandre no, fuck off. I would say that was a twist that was hard to take whereas whatever Cersei is going to throw at us we're already mentally prepared for the worst! |
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Post by Belle on May 3, 2016 17:37:13 GMT
I agree with what you are saying. "Madness to make sense" is a wonderful paradox, though. Well 'shock value' and Cersei are pretty much an oxymoron anyways since we the audience actually expect it from her whereas Stannis was supposed to be solid and unwavering in personality so it came across as much more shocking when he finally did agree to burn Shireen even though all the signs were there ... the foreshadowing was heavy and all, we still didn't think he'd actually do it. He had told everyone including Melisandre no, fuck off. I would say that was a twist that was hard to take whereas whatever Cersei is going to throw at us we're already mentally prepared for the worst! I mean I guess, but we're in uncharted book territory so we there still room for surprise even for a character like Cersei. |
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2016 18:07:51 GMT
Well 'shock value' and Cersei are pretty much an oxymoron anyways since we the audience actually expect it from her whereas Stannis was supposed to be solid and unwavering in personality so it came across as much more shocking when he finally did agree to burn Shireen even though all the signs were there ... the foreshadowing was heavy and all, we still didn't think he'd actually do it. He had told everyone including Melisandre no, fuck off. I would say that was a twist that was hard to take whereas whatever Cersei is going to throw at us we're already mentally prepared for the worst! I mean I guess, but we're in uncharted book territory so we there still room for surprise even for a character like Cersei. And that's what makes all this speculation even more fun. For once we have no damn idea what's going to happen with these characters we've been following for so long and no book to back up arguments! |
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Post by janicia on May 3, 2016 18:19:14 GMT
I agree, I do think Cersei is distancing herself from Tommen because she's convinced she'll lose him. Both to Margaery and also that he'll die prematurely. When she hugged both Jaime and Tommen, it really seemed like she was making an effort because that was what they needed / wanted from her, but the hug was forced on her end and she did not derive comfort from either of them.
I don't think Cersei would ever actively plot against Tommen. But she knows she can't count on him and she has no intention of letting him have decision-making authority. Her plots will probably attempt to keep Tommen sidelined, which will be a point of tension because he is trying to do his job and be the king.
At this point, if Cersei sends Jaime away, I think it will almost be an act of love, an attempt to spare him from the Greek Tragedy they're stuck in. Mixed in with the feeling that the relationship with Jaime stifles her at this point. But to get Jaime to leave, she might have to attempt the same thing Tyrion attempted to send away Shae, probably with similar tragic results. It would be sad and sort of wonderful if Cersei and Tyrion ended up in an awful parallel.
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Post by Belle on May 3, 2016 19:51:37 GMT
I mean I guess, but we're in uncharted book territory so we there still room for surprise even for a character like Cersei. And that's what makes all this speculation even more fun. For once we have no damn idea what's going to happen with these characters we've been following for so long and no book to back up arguments! all i ask is for the surprises to be properly built up and decently written. not just thrown at us for the sake of shock value |
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, she is slowly losing it completely. I hope Kevan pushes his demands as in AFFC in the upcoming episodes, to be named Hand and Regent, to further see Cersei become unravelled. Not to mention when Margaery gets released, I assume in a few episodes time, that will further alienate her from Tommen. 
