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Post by archiechvyalthan on Apr 9, 2016 13:37:22 GMT
Been thinking about Bran's storyline lately and how it could all go down. I really think Season 6 could feature the extermination of the remaining children of the forest.... and the giants, because only Wun Wun is left. In ADWD, while talking to Bran, Leaf foretells the extinction of her people, the giants and all magical creatures from the earth (she says the direwolves will last the longest, maybe suggesting a Stark renaissance of sorts, but eventually they too will die out). I assume dragons are also included here, but that's another topic altogether. So this is how I think it goes down.... Bran and Meera become acquainted with the children, learn of their ancient feud with the First Men, but also of the Pact.... and the famous alliance of men and children of the forest that supposedly ended the first Long Night. The Three-Eyed Raven will hype up a new pact between the children and the humans, with Bran as their intermediary. All kinds of pretty plans will be put in motion before the Night's King unceremoniously invades the cave in the finale and puts an end to the CotF as a living species. And if the weirwood tree burns as suggested by the teaser, then not only do the CotF become extinct but their entire memories and secrets go with them. All weirwoods become silent. The gods go silent too, if the Three-Eyed Raven is actually the figure behind "R'hllor" and the man behind the visions.  I know there are theories out there that the CotF are shady creatures, and I think this could definitely be true of some of them (especially those with a strong hatred of humans), but I tend to think CotF like Leaf are legit. They are all about nature striving so they definitely wouldn't be in cahoots with the white walkers. Assuming the WWs are all about ending all forms of life, they're going to come into conflict. If this actually comes to pass, where would this leave Bran and his magical powers? It would end season 6 on an extremely bleak note, for sure, and with another fantasy trope shattered to pieces: no, the little magical elves will not be saving the day. But, and this is wildly speculative, I think the catch here may be that the Three-Eyed Raven will have let it all happen. Towards the end of the season he will destroy the magical barrier that protects the cave and lure the enemy in. Why? Maybe because he saw it had to happen in order for Bran to do what he had to do and for certain events to unfold a certain way. He can see the future after all. Of course I may be way off here and the CotF live on to fight another day. But I think, if things go this way or a similar way, it would set an interesting stage for season 7 where the gods do not answer anyone's prayers and where the memory of the past is lost.... the white walkers being literally the last "gods" standing. Leaving a scenario where humanity would have to get their sh-t together without help. Theories/comments/laughter?  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2016 16:08:33 GMT
Yay I'm so glad I'm not the only one feeling philosophical and writing essays today! I wrote a long one in the speculation thread about Jon Snow's resurrection. I should move it to one of the debate posts about that ... Well of course they're shady ... they live in the trees! (sorry, could not resist that one!  ) But seriously, I don't think the CotF are 'all good' while the Others are 'all bad' in theory. As we know, nothing is that black and white in the ASOIAF universe and thank goodness or we'd be doing Lord of the Rings 2.0 here! Dragons and direwolves are the manifestation of magic's return in the generation of our favorite 'heroes' of the story but they too display both good and evil in fair measures depending on the side of the fence you're viewing it from. This recent resurgence of magic is attributed to the Others becoming more active. I remind myself often that the Others have been 'on the move' for quite some time long before Dany hatched dragons and the Starks found direwolf pups. What brought the Others back to the forefront? The wildlings living north of the wall and breaking the pact? No one's certain on that one. We don't even know what the Others motivations are in moving south. We assume it's to destroy humans who broke their treaty but with no way to communicate with them - who knows really. Bran and Bloodraven play some significant role in this and I hope in Season 6 through Bran's visions this role will become clearer as well as some history or past/future predictions revealed. Not sure about this one. I don't think the Others are exclusive of the 'circle of life' within magic so to speak. They are only one side of that yin and yang theory that's necessary for the balance. The ice and the fire - no two sides can be stronger than the other. Light and dark must continue on. This theme is prevalent in a lot of our fantasy literature. Star Wars for example with "the force" being the magical thing that must balance. If the Others destroy the weirwood trees, they are willingly unbalancing the two sides. They are not mindless monsters, we know they communicate and have their own sort of social structure. Evil doesn't consume them to the point they destroy the world, does it? I do believe it's possible the children of the forest are on their way out as their time has passed but so too perhaps the time of the Others has passed and that's the ending we have to find? Maybe the dragons and direwolves are the last of their kind as well - being revived for one last push in an epic magical struggle that leaves the universe at the end when both ice and fire are destroyed in it's representative sides. It would be sad ("bittersweet" even) to think of all magic dying away for good at the end of the saga. Man moving forward much the way our own real life medieval people moved forward into man's golden age and development into modern times. But it would be an ending that satisfies our need for completion. |
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Post by archiechvyalthan on Apr 9, 2016 16:47:58 GMT
Yay I'm so glad I'm not the only one feeling philosophical and writing essays today! I wrote a long one in the speculation thread about Jon Snow's resurrection. I should move it to one of the debate posts about that ... Well of course they're shady ... they live in the trees! (sorry, could not resist that one! ) But seriously, I don't think the CotF are 'all good' while the Others are 'all bad' in theory. As we know, nothing is that black and white in the ASOIAF universe and thank goodness or we'd be doing Lord of the Rings 2.0 here! Dragons and direwolves are the manifestation of magic's return in the generation of our favorite 'heroes' of the story but they too display both good and evil in fair measures depending on the side of the fence you're viewing it from. This recent resurgence of magic is attributed to the Others becoming more active. I remind myself often that the Others have been 'on the move' for quite some time long before Dany hatched dragons and the Starks found direwolf pups. What brought the Others back to the forefront? The wildlings living north of the wall and breaking the pact? No one's certain on that one. We don't even know what the Others motivations are in moving south. We assume it's to destroy humans who broke their treaty but with no way to communicate with them - who knows really. Bran and Bloodraven play some significant role in this and I hope in Season 6 through Bran's visions this role will become clearer as well as some history or past/future predictions revealed. Not sure about this one. I don't think the Others are exclusive of the 'circle of life' within magic so to speak. They are only one side of that yin and yang theory that's necessary for the balance. The ice and the fire - no two sides can be stronger than the other. Light and dark must continue on. This theme is prevalent in a lot of our fantasy literature. Star Wars for example with "the force" being the magical thing that must balance. If the Others destroy the weirwood trees, they are willingly unbalancing the two sides. They are not mindless monsters, we know they communicate and have their own sort of social structure. Evil doesn't consume them to the point they destroy the world, does it? I do believe it's possible the children of the forest are on their way out as their time has passed but so too perhaps the time of the Others has passed and that's the ending we have to find? Maybe the dragons and direwolves are the last of their kind as well - being revived for one last push in an epic magical struggle that leaves the universe at the end when both ice and fire are destroyed in it's representative sides. It would be sad ("bittersweet" even) to think of all magic dying away for good at the end of the saga. Man moving forward much the way our own real life medieval people moved forward into man's golden age and development into modern times. But it would be an ending that satisfies our need for completion. Completely agree that the children aren't all innocent. I suspect there are two branches - one, vengeful and with a strong hatred of humans, which either joined the WWs or were lured by them in some way, and another group that stayed true to their roots (the puns are not intended but they slip in anyway).  I think Leaf belongs to the latter group. The nature-loving group would certainly oppose the white walkers because, well, "forests don't grow in darkness". Self-preservation at work. There's a great theory here btw as to the possible white walker origins and connection to the CotF based on GRRM quotes: As for the overarching theme of ice and fire, I don't think WWs are concerned with keeping the balance. I do think the WWs wish to eradicate all living organisms from the earth (and transform some of them into an "other" form of existence, like with Craster's babies) - this wouldn't make them evil, it's just their essence, sort of like the Greek idea of "Chaos" as a primeval force (since we're getting philosophical ). Likewise, the forces of fire would probably burn everything to the ground if they could, "fire and blood" and all that. It is not their job to create balance imo - it's the battle between them that can result in balance. And of course, we'll still have the dragons for that going forward  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2016 16:58:58 GMT
I haven't yet read the thread, but is there any confirmation that Wun Wun is the last of the giants? Or is that just an assumption because he was the only giant at Hardhome?
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Post by archiechvyalthan on Apr 9, 2016 17:05:16 GMT
I haven't yet read the thread, but is there any confirmation that Wun Wun is the last of the giants? Or is that just an assumption because he was the only giant at Hardhome? I think it may be implied in either book or show, but I'm not 100% positive. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2016 17:10:11 GMT
I haven't yet read the thread, but is there any confirmation that Wun Wun is the last of the giants? Or is that just an assumption because he was the only giant at Hardhome? I think it may be implied in either book or show, but I'm not 100% positive. I hope we'll get wight giants at some point. |
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Post by day dreamer on Apr 9, 2016 19:08:12 GMT
I think it very well could be the end for the CotF. I'm not sure about the rest of the magical creatures yet at this point. Especially if we ever get those ice spiders.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2016 19:19:05 GMT
I think giants and dragons will definitely go extinct before the series is over. I dunno about CotF.
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Apr 9, 2016 20:26:17 GMT
I haven't yet read the thread, but is there any confirmation that Wun Wun is the last of the giants? Or is that just an assumption because he was the only giant at Hardhome? It's an assumption. Mance said that Mag was the last of his family, but the show's said nothing about the last of the race. |
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Post by barristanwhitebeard on Apr 10, 2016 1:50:02 GMT
I think this season will help us to understand the true nature behind the ancient races, specially the Children of The Forest and the White Walkers. It's one of the most exciting aspects of Bran's arc. I really doubt that the answer is as simple as "Children are good, Walkers are bad". Everything is this world is more complex than it looks at first, so I have no doubt that both entities have their own shades of grey. They both have their motivations, their agendas, their reasons to come back after centuries of silent... We're nearer to find out the truth.
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Post by archiechvyalthan on Apr 10, 2016 14:08:51 GMT
I think this season will help us to understand the true nature behind the ancient races, specially the Children of The Forest and the White Walkers. It's one of the most exciting aspects of Bran's arc. I really doubt that the answer is as simple as "Children are good, Walkers are bad". Everything is this world is more complex than it looks at first, so I have no doubt that both entities have their own shades of grey. They both have their motivations, their agendas, their reasons to come back after centuries of silent... We're nearer to find out the truth. Absolutely, won't be a straightforward affair. But the CotF have ample reason to fight the Others and it's not to help humans, but rather for self-preservation purposes. Nature can't strive in endless winter. It is possible however that some CotF support the Others eradicating mankind, but this is assuming they are able to end the winter after the deed has been done, and thus revert to a state of nature without any pesky humans around. In which case the CotF's endgame would ally with the Others', but only temporarily. As to the white walkers, they could think of mortal life as a kind of pathetic existence with no meaning, which, again, doesn't make them evil. It just makes them indifferent from our perspective. As GRRM said, they are a foreign form of life. There are really a thousand ways it can go. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 14:17:24 GMT
I think this season will help us to understand the true nature behind the ancient races, specially the Children of The Forest and the White Walkers. It's one of the most exciting aspects of Bran's arc. I really doubt that the answer is as simple as "Children are good, Walkers are bad". Everything is this world is more complex than it looks at first, so I have no doubt that both entities have their own shades of grey. They both have their motivations, their agendas, their reasons to come back after centuries of silent... We're nearer to find out the truth. Absolutely, won't be a straightforward affair. But the CotF have ample reason to fight the Others and it's not to help humans, but rather for self-preservation purposes. Nature can't strive in endless winter. It is possible however that some CotF support the Others eradicating mankind, but this is assuming they are able to end the winter after the deed has been done, and thus revert to a state of nature without any pesky humans around. In which case the CotF's endgame would ally with the Others', but only temporarily. As to the white walkers, they could think of mortal life as a kind of pathetic existence with no meaning, which, again, doesn't make them evil. It just makes them indifferent from our perspective. As GRRM said, they are a foreign form of life.There are really a thousand ways it can go. |
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Post by Mecha-StannisForever on May 6, 2016 15:00:57 GMT
I think about the song "I am the last of the giants" that the Wildling sing in the books whenever anyone brings up the giants dying out. The White Walkers seem to have wiped them all out as only Wun Wun is left  As for the children, hour many are actually left? I like your theory, and I think that magic will die at the end of the series. I think the Dragons die (and since the books hint the dragons returning has made the old magic stronger, the old magic once again weakens), Jon and Dany die, Mel dies, the WWs die... In the end it's only the skeptics like Tyrion, Davos and Sam who are left, and they know that the magic did exist now. I think George's books always did the "magic is a double edged sword thing well, and by having this thing (or things) that could change the world be lost to defeat the white walkers is quite tragic. |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2016 9:18:19 GMT
I think so.
The COTF, WW and dragons were born from magic and will all die when magic does. Which I think is going to happen after the WW are defeated for good.
At least that's what I hope will happen. There's always a chance defeating the WW only brings back a balance between ice and fire but magic is still alive in the world. Either way I think the giants and COTF will be the first to go extinct.
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Post by Basil on May 19, 2016 10:26:50 GMT
I think there is definitely a connection between the Children and the Others. I'm not so sure about them being descendants (or 'mutations', I guess) of the Children, but I read a pretty interesting theory a while back (and it's probably my favourite theory on the subject) saying that the Others were created by the Children intentionally as weapons.
They must have been pretty desperate, they even went so far as to destroy the Arm of Dorne (and they also attempted to do the same with the Neck, iirc), terraforming the shit out of the entire continent just to stop the First Men from advancing, so as a last resort sort of, they used their magic to transform First Men themselves, turning them into powerful and hard-to-kill ice demons, hoping that they would fight among themselves and destroy each other, the normal humans and the "other" humans. But the Chldren had no control over their creation, their number grew as they developed the ability to reproduce and eventually the Others became an even bigger threat than the First Men themselves.
Obviously that's a pretty out there, tinfoily theory, with a lot of holes in it, for example, why did the Others appear for the first time roughly 4,000 years after the war between the First Men and the Children had already ended, what took them so long? I just think it's a cool idea and it would kind of make sense that the Children had something to do with their creation, they were willing to destroy large bodies of land after all, so what's stopping them from using their magic to fuck with their enemy from within?
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Post by archiechvyalthan on May 24, 2016 6:44:40 GMT
I think there is definitely a connection between the Children and the Others. I'm not so sure about them being descendants (or 'mutations', I guess) of the Children, but I read a pretty interesting theory a while back (and it's probably my favourite theory on the subject) saying that the Others were created by the Children intentionally as weapons. They must have been pretty desperate, they even went so far as to destroy the Arm of Dorne (and they also attempted to do the same with the Neck, iirc), terraforming the shit out of the entire continent just to stop the First Men from advancing, so as a last resort sort of, they used their magic to transform First Men themselves, turning them into powerful and hard-to-kill ice demons, hoping that they would fight among themselves and destroy each other, the normal humans and the " other" humans. But the Chldren had no control over their creation, their number grew as they developed the ability to reproduce and eventually the Others became an even bigger threat than the First Men themselves. Obviously that's a pretty out there, tinfoily theory, with a lot of holes in it, for example, why did the Others appear for the first time roughly 4,000 years after the war between the First Men and the Children had already ended, what took them so long? I just think it's a cool idea and it would kind of make sense that the Children had something to do with their creation, they were willing to destroy large bodies of land after all, so what's stopping them from using their magic to fuck with their enemy from within? Well, you turned out to be right I think the Children had no idea what they were doing, though. I think they played with foreign magic, sacrificing First Men to "turn them", but the white walkers always answered to something else. They are the perfect opposites of the Children in every way. RIP Children of the Forest. Nice to see you put up a fight. |
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I think Leaf belongs to the latter group. The nature-loving group would certainly oppose the white walkers because, well, "forests don't grow in darkness". Self-preservation at work. There's a great theory here btw as to the possible white walker origins and connection to the CotF based on GRRM quotes:
