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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 20:41:20 GMT
Filler Material = Anything that isn't in the books that I don't like By definition that is filler for any adapted material... Just sayin' There's good filler and bad filler. I'm not gonna say I like something for the sake of avoiding an arguement, but I'm also not gonna lecture people on the "correct 100 percent pure GRRM version!" Besides the things people define as filler on this show are 9 out of 10 based on lines or references in the books, just played out by non povs. And if we didnt have non POV scenes in the show, it would be pretty boring. I liked spending time with interesting characters like Olena and Tywin (fucking great scene btw). So yeah, this show doesnt really have much filler, just a lot of adapted scenes. Alos, I once saw someone post that the YgritteXJon scenes were glorified filler... B-|
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Post by AdmiralKyrd on May 16, 2015 21:03:54 GMT
We don't actually get much development of Sansa learning to control Ramsay - which is probably going to happen. I agreed with some of other things in your post, but this: I don't think she'll learn to control him. Ramsay will abuse her in the wedding and after it, until Roose goes to tell him not to. After that there is only few episodes before Theon helps her escape. And yeah, now I'd have to agree with you. I thought they'd go with more of a route where Sansa has a bit of control over Ramsay, err, feigned control, before flipping it on it's head (although they still might do this for part of 4.06 but they wouldn't have much time), but I guess they're just going to go more with a direct route. I also feel like there might be more to the Roose/Ramsay scene in 5.05 that meets the eye and they aren't at the same spot as they were when the episode began. I think Ramsay might take more offense at what Roose presumably did to his mother, but he's not letting it show. That would elevate that scene's importance much higher. The Winterfell dinner scene... I'm conflicted on whether it is good for the story or not. It's heavily interlinked with where the subsequent Winterfell scenes go because there are so many characters there that all of their future stories will link back into it. * I still don't like Meereen. I think it stumbles past limits of plausibility for her decision to burn the Great Master, and her scene with Missandei should have been stronger and more interesting. * The Wall was by and large good to great. I just wish Jon didn't let Tormund walk all over him at the end of their meeting. The title was "Kill the Boy," but Jon just kind of acted the same in his command. The only thing he killed was the inability to make an unpopular decision.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 0:52:44 GMT
I too think that Sansa being raped has to be justified from a story point of view, but I don't see how her position in the books factors into that. it needs to be justified because it's a very serious issue, not because the source material took a different route. And it certainly seems premature to say that they "really, really deserve this" before they've even had a chance to show the scene, or the aftermath of the scene and therefore justify it's existence. No, for me the mere placement of Sansa in this situation is enough. Really? Does this mean rape in a story is never justified? Because theoretically, this could be an incredibly well written and moving arc that handles rape with care. And frankly, characters are placed in danger all the time in this story, why is this so different. For many of the female characters, rape has been an ever present threat throughout the story.
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Post by kingeomer on May 17, 2015 1:50:03 GMT
I too think that Sansa being raped has to be justified from a story point of view, but I don't see how her position in the books factors into that. it needs to be justified because it's a very serious issue, not because the source material took a different route. And it certainly seems premature to say that they "really, really deserve this" before they've even had a chance to show the scene, or the aftermath of the scene and therefore justify it's existence. While you are correct, that at this point, the blowback D&D will receive over this scene is premature..I think the pessimism comes from that folks have not been happy with how D&D have handled stories of a similar vein in earlier seasons. If they give it the treatment it deserves, I would be very impressed. I hope they do. I think the justification for the scene is going to be twofold: starting to set the dominoes in motion for Reek to turn back to Theon and Ramsey's desire to make an heir to push Roose and Walda's baby down on the inheritance list.
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Post by Nezzer on May 17, 2015 3:32:37 GMT
No, for me the mere placement of Sansa in this situation is enough. Really? Does this mean rape in a story is never justified? Because theoretically, this could be an incredibly well written and moving arc that handles rape with care. And frankly, characters are placed in danger all the time in this story, why is this so different. For many of the female characters, rape has been an ever present threat throughout the story. Yeah, I can understand why many people, especially women, might be offended by it, but I'm not bothered because I don't believe anything is too disturbing to not be depicted in fiction. Any kind of fictional sick fuckery, no matter how bad it is, is fair game to me as long as it doesn't break any laws in the real world, like underage nudity and stuff like that.
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Post by King Tommen on May 17, 2015 4:18:55 GMT
Lots of terrible things happen to characters on this show. Like, awful things. And to the female characters too. Talisa got stabbed repeatedly in her pregnant belly before bleeding out on the floor. Catelyn got her throat slit after watching her son die in front of her. Shae was strangled. Ros got hung up and had a bunch of arrows put through her until she died. Tansy got hunted down in the woods by a pack of dogs. And that's just some of the women.
Theon got his dick cut off. People have been burned alive (by dragons and on the stake), had their heads chopped off, been decapitated, watched babies get their throat slit, strangled etc. Pretty nasty shit and you're more or less good for at least one of these things every episode.
I'm not sure why the only time we can have a segment of the fanbase rear up in horror, write essays and rage all over the show producers is when there is even a hint of sexual violence that occurs. Like everything else is a-ok but this is the tipping point? It's awful and shitty for the character to endure but so are the other million awful and shitty things that happen to characters on this show. Be consistent in your raging.
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Post by freypies on May 17, 2015 5:09:36 GMT
^ Exactly.
From the sounds of it, it seems they are mostly going to be focused on Theon's face, which kind of shows that the scene will be handled pretty delicately.
Also, I don't see how whatever is going to happen is in any way worse than anything that has happened to Theon, or what they depicted with the babies in The North Remembers (201).
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 9:08:33 GMT
Lots of terrible things happen to characters on this show. Like, awful things. And to the female characters too. Talisa got stabbed repeatedly in her pregnant belly before bleeding out on the floor. Catelyn got her throat slit after watching her son die in front of her. Shae was strangled. Ros got hung up and had a bunch of arrows put through her until she died. Tansy got hunted down in the woods by a pack of dogs. And that's just some of the women. Theon got his dick cut off. People have been burned alive (by dragons and on the stake), had their heads chopped off, been decapitated, watched babies get their throat slit, strangled etc. Pretty nasty shit and you're more or less good for at least one of these things every episode. I'm not sure why the only time we can have a segment of the fanbase rear up in horror, write essays and rage all over the show producers is when there is even a hint of sexual violence that occurs. Like everything else is a-ok but this is the tipping point? It's awful and shitty for the character to endure but so are the other million awful and shitty things that happen to characters on this show. Be consistent in your raging. Again I'm on my phone so this will not be a very eloquent response, but I don't think any of those other displays of brutality really compare to their displays of sexual violence. For one, the audience knows that all of those things are awful and hideous and truly ddisgusting acts, but I do not think the same applies to rape. Every day, women (and men) all over the world are raped and get told they were asking for it, or that they're lying or that if they orgasmed then they must have wanted it. The attitudes to sexual assault that exist in our world are fucked up. I mean, look at sept gate - D&D dropped the ball on that one since at least 3 people involved in the filming claimed it wasn't rape. I mean, what the fuck? You have people acting that out who actually thought it wasn't rape? That it wasn't a disgusting, despicable act? And then there have been people already trying to excuse the upcoming scene as not rape because Sansa consented to the marriage and knew it was coming. And then seemed to cite other arrangemed marriages in the series as some kind of back up for how it shouldn't be seen as rape. That is a serious problem. I know the jury is still out on whether or not Sansa will willingly consent, but given the circumstances I don't see the issue with assuming she won't. If people aren't going to see these incidences as despicable acts or they're going to try and justify them as consensual then that is a problem and is deserving of endless essays criticising it. Anyway, I don't want people to take this to mean I don't like rape being portrayed in fiction. Like Nezzer I think unless it's illegal to portray then it's fair game (portrayal is not endorsement), but I think D&D's use of it is trouble. Remember they also added an attempted rape scene for Sansa in season 2 that I don't think was in the books and served no real purpose.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 10:05:44 GMT
Yeah, that Sansa photo is not from Season 1 filming. That shot was filmed for the unaired pilot episode. But I get your point. Are you sure? I could see the possibility of Sansa evolving into some kind of a LSH figure after this Winterfell mess is done. She's going to be hardened and scarred.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 10:11:42 GMT
Yeah, that Sansa photo is not from Season 1 filming. That shot was filmed for the unaired pilot episode. But I get your point. Are you sure? I could see the possibility of Sansa evolving into some kind of a LSH figure after this Winterfell mess is done. She's going to be hardened and scarred. Yeah, D&D said they just used a body double for the shots of Headey and Fairley as the shots of Turner weren't redone.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 10:14:19 GMT
No, for me the mere placement of Sansa in this situation is enough. Really? Does this mean rape in a story is never justified? Because theoretically, this could be an incredibly well written and moving arc that handles rape with care. And frankly, characters are placed in danger all the time in this story, why is this so different. For many of the female characters, rape has been an ever present threat throughout the story. TBH I dont think the show ever throws around rape as a light subject (except that one scene we're not getting into). It always serves a purpose in the plot.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 10:18:40 GMT
Are you sure? I could see the possibility of Sansa evolving into some kind of a LSH figure after this Winterfell mess is done. She's going to be hardened and scarred. Yeah, D&D said they just used a body double for the shots of Headey and Fairley as the shots of Turner weren't redone. Because Jennifer Ehle played Cat in the pilot.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 10:38:25 GMT
Fire and Blood,
I still don't think we can honestly know what happened with the sept scene. Could have been editing, could have been anything really. But really, I don't think it's fair to criticise the show for it's use of sexual violence based off the fact that there are quite a few absolute morons out there that don't think sexual violence is bad, or don't know what rape is. Rape in the show has always been portrayed as a bad thing, anyone who can't see that is mad. Even the sept scene basically had horror music playing over it, regardless of intent. Criticisms of how it is handled in the show I can understand, but not criticising it based of audience reactions.
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Post by Admin on May 17, 2015 11:38:00 GMT
No, for me the mere placement of Sansa in this situation is enough. Really? Does this mean rape in a story is never justified? Because theoretically, this could be an incredibly well written and moving arc that handles rape with care. And frankly, characters are placed in danger all the time in this story, why is this so different. For many of the female characters, rape has been an ever present threat throughout the story. That is not gonna happen on that show. Lots of terrible things happen to characters on this show. Like, awful things. And to the female characters too. Talisa got stabbed repeatedly in her pregnant belly before bleeding out on the floor. Catelyn got her throat slit after watching her son die in front of her. Shae was strangled. Ros got hung up and had a bunch of arrows put through her until she died. Tansy got hunted down in the woods by a pack of dogs. And that's just some of the women. Theon got his dick cut off. People have been burned alive (by dragons and on the stake), had their heads chopped off, been decapitated, watched babies get their throat slit, strangled etc. Pretty nasty shit and you're more or less good for at least one of these things every episode. I'm not sure why the only time we can have a segment of the fanbase rear up in horror, write essays and rage all over the show producers is when there is even a hint of sexual violence that occurs. Like everything else is a-ok but this is the tipping point? It's awful and shitty for the character to endure but so are the other million awful and shitty things that happen to characters on this show. Be consistent in your raging. They all died. Sansa has to live with what is gonna happen to her.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 11:56:58 GMT
That is not gonna happen on that show. They all died. Sansa has to live with what is gonna happen to her.But the point is, we don't know that yet, making judgement premature. I don't see how living with trauma is worse than dying. At least she has a chance of recovering. But I admit to a different perspective on that matter Edit: Just saw your off topic message. I defer to your infinite mod wisdom, great one. Would it be possible to move all these messages about the Sansa scene over to that thread?
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Post by Admin on May 17, 2015 12:15:51 GMT
MOD: Moved a bunch of posts from Kill the Boy poll thread here.
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Post by kingeomer on May 17, 2015 12:22:54 GMT
People keep pointing out that Theon looks like he's crying in the preview but that may not be because something bad is happening. He's being forced to watch Sansa, who he's known for pretty much her whole life, and Ramsay, who he knows is a terrible, sadistic person, consummate their marriage. He doesn't want Sansa to get hurt because he knows what Ramsay's capable of, of course it's going to be a traumatic experience for him. I just really don't want to jump to conclusions that something terrible is happening in that scene. You guys have better tolerance than I do for me just having this poor girl have sex with the son of the man who killed her family is horrible enough Sati, I agree with you. I think it's horrible Sansa is marrying into the Bolton family-the family that killed her mother and brother with the help of the Freys and Tywin Lannister. And now she will have sex (or be raped) by Ramsey. And Littlefinger did absolutely nothing to prepare her take revenge on them. I think it's terrible enough her marriage will be "consummated".
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Post by Enid on May 17, 2015 13:38:24 GMT
Fire and Blood, I still don't think we can honestly know what happened with the sept scene. Could have been editing, could have been anything really. But really, I don't think it's fair to criticise the show for it's use of sexual violence based off the fact that there are quite a few absolute morons out there that don't think sexual violence is bad, or don't know what rape is. Rape in the show has always been portrayed as a bad thing, anyone who can't see that is mad. Even the sept scene basically had horror music playing over it, regardless of intent. Criticisms of how it is handled in the show I can understand, but not criticising it based of audience reactions. I never understood the backlash of the sept scene because, when I read that chapter in ASOS, I though it was pretty clear Cersei didn't want to have sex with Jaime at that particular moment, I mean: “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons...”
"She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her."Cersei is telling him no, that is too dangerous, and he " doesn't hear her" (that's creepy); and is she really hitting him with " feeble fists" or is just that Jaime is stronger than her and sees it that way even though she is actually trying to push him away? “Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.”But no sooner were they done than the queen said, “Let me up. If we are discovered like this...”I took that as Cersei realizing she can't fight Jaime, so she gives up and encourages him just to make it end as soon as possible, the fact that she got away the second he finished is quite revealing, as it is the fact that in the books this is the last time they ever have sex together, at least for now. Sorry for sidetracking the thread, but I always saw what happened in the sept as rape, maybe I'm messed up or something. On topic: I go back and forth, one moment I'm sure Sansa will get away from the bedding somehow, the next I'm telling myself to be ready because is going to happen no matter what. Honestly I don't care if Ramsay behaves like a human being during the wedding and doesn't hurt her, the fact that she has to marry and probably have sex with someone as despicable as Ramsay, the person who destroyed her home, and the son of the man who killed her family, is disgusting. Period.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 15:25:37 GMT
She will be raped. And that debate will be as justified as Unsullied being pissed and angry at D&D for Ned's beheading.At least that rape is not out of character for anyone. That is not a good comparison. Ned was beheaded in the books, Sansa is a virgin in the books and not in the hands of Ramsay. It's show's invention, one that is yet to be justified and I'm not holding my breath for that. I hope D&D face the righteous wrath again, this time they really, really deserve this. Um yes, Sansa is not in the hands of Ramsay. She is marrying Harry the Heir. And I am 100% sure she'll lose her maidenhood.
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Post by Admin on May 17, 2015 16:05:10 GMT
That is not a good comparison. Ned was beheaded in the books, Sansa is a virgin in the books and not in the hands of Ramsay. It's show's invention, one that is yet to be justified and I'm not holding my breath for that. I hope D&D face the righteous wrath again, this time they really, really deserve this. Um yes, Sansa is not in the hands of Ramsay. She is marrying Harry the Heir. And I am 100% sure she'll lose her maidenhood. Yes, it's the same. Harry the Heir is after all a psychopath and the member of the family who had Sansa's family killed.
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