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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 20:50:47 GMT
I wasn't sure where to put this thread, so I am just going to put it in the generic Season 5 area for speculation / discussion since it covers a few episodes so far this season but also is something of a book vs. show vs. uncharted territory thing. In particular, I'd like to ask how others felt about the red priestess in Volantis scene from Episode 3 (High Sparrow) where Tyrion and Varys encounter a Red Priestess giving a sermon to the slaves. Tyrion's drunk and is inappropriately loud about "We're going to see the Savior!" which draws the stink-eye stare from the priestess. It's a strange scene but I have wondered what the significance was for that look she gave him and her sermon as well.  For some, the fact she was touting the dragons (and Daenarys) as R'hllor's doing was somewhat confusing. But upon further thought, the fact that the birth of Dany's dragons have somehow rekindled magic in the world makes it more reasonable they attribute this to their God's power. R'hllor is the god of flame after all so of course dragons would symbolize that to Red God worshipers. Beric was resurrected by Thoros and his new found power was attributed to the time the dragons were reborn. The death of the last dragons had seen the dying of much magic. The Others are on the move now too. Many theories surround this and I'm only touching lightly on most of that just for examples. I'm curious what some of you thought about that scene and what it meant? Not much was ever discussed about it and I feel like some clues may have been overlooked - or was it just a straightforward thing? The priestess was a former slave herself, not uncommon since the Red Temples often bought slaves to train as priests/priestesses and Melisandre herself was one as a child, but from Asshai, not Volantis. Her own heritage is important since Asshai is considered the one remaining place of strong magic (and cursed). Why do you think she looked at Tyrion that way? Was there significance to the look? Did she sense something in him? Would love to hear your take on this and how it fits into the events to come as Tyrion moves towards Dany and the dragons soon (So exciting!)  |
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on May 6, 2015 21:53:30 GMT
Ooo, yay, a magic/gods thread! A Holy R'hollorer endorsing Dany was straight from the book, just Tyrion/Varys instead of whoever Tyrion was with then in the book, and a new red priestess instead of the red priest Benerro. If there was more significance to her staring at Tyrion than just being annoyed by his noise, maybe she'd seen him in the flames with Dany or being near a dragon, or maybe the significance was due to the mention of Stone Men and she sensed he was about to meet them.
As to the chicken vs. egg debate about dragons vs. the return of magic, didn't the white walkers wake up before Dany had her first dragon dream? We know Bloodraven was in his weirwood cave doing gods-know-what with the CotF years before that. What I'm getting at is I think the re-birth of the dragons was possible because things were getting wonky up north, like there had to be a balance of ice vs. fire magic. It's possible Thoros got his powers while the dragons were still warming in their eggs. Ned sent Beric and co. out back in ep 6 and their first fatal run-in with the Mountain should have been soon after, I'm not sure how the s1 Westeros timeline syncs up with events in Dany's, but feels like the Brotherhood was born before Dany's dragons. So fire magic started with Thoros in Westeros and then really, um, heated up at Drogo's funeral pyre. Like I think the idea with AAR theories is that Azor Ahai has been reborn because the world needs a savior, not that a new Azor Ahai popped up and then the world starting going to shit and needing a savior. So, in that vein, I'm thinking the difference between Dany with her eggs and Great-grandpa Egg with whatever he did at Summerhall is that dragons needed to come back and magic was already on the rise. The times were right so as soon as Illryio bought those eggs, they started calling to Dany in her dreams.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 22:04:25 GMT
Ah, see! I knew you would be helpful in this discussion!  As I mentioned in another thread, a lot of the ADWD details are fuzzy for me so this will help sort it out and hopefully for others like me - anticipating all the changes and unknown plots to come on the show. I don't remember the Red Priest Benerro stuff so this is a good reminder that Dany's endorsement by the Red God worshipers isn't a new thing for the show, they just altered how it's revealed. I also think the return of magic is a chicken vs. magic debate that's hard to pinpoint and purposely left vague in writing anyways. There's probably no one 'right' answer or key element that caused or triggered it all but maybe there is and George will reveal it. Those eggs were definitely a part of the bigger plan and not just a happy coindidence as a wedding gift, I agree! Lots more to say about this but I've got to run out for a bit and will check back later and see what else you and others have to say about it. It's a fun topic to speculate about! |
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King Tyrion I
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Post by King Tyrion I on May 6, 2015 22:15:45 GMT
I remember talking about this in the speculation thread. And someone else - don't know who of you guys right now - pointed me to Moqorro and his quote about Tyrion.
"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all."
This echoes the one in Jon I. The feast at Winterfell at the honor of Robert.
"When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king."
And of course Varys' own: "Ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow."
I think that the priestess is a sort of substitute for Moqorro. It would make sense after all.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 22:17:35 GMT
Doesn't Maester Aemon also refer to Tyrion as a giant? And then of course there's Shae with her "Giant of Lannister" chat.
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King Tyrion I
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Post by King Tyrion I on May 6, 2015 22:35:05 GMT
Doesn't Maester Aemon also refer to Tyrion as a giant? And then of course there's Shae with her "Giant of Lannister" chat. I think so, yes. If so, it's got to be in AGoT. During Tyrion's stay at the Wall. Because Tyrion himself says, "I have been called many things but giant is seldom one of them." |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2015 1:20:35 GMT
I remember talking about this in the speculation thread. And someone else - don't know who of you guys right now - pointed me to Moqorro and his quote about Tyrion. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all."This echoes the one in Jon I. The feast at Winterfell at the honor of Robert. "When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king." And of course Varys' own: "Ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow."I think that the priestess is a sort of substitute for Moqorro. It would make sense after all. These are terrific quotes, thanks for finding them! I truly hope Tyrion's path to Dany is a good one and ends well. Things got pretty bad in the book and I started to really fear we were being built up for this big meeting with Daenarys and then it was never going to happen - what a cruel joke by Mr. Martin that would be! Since it looks like they are definitely fast forwarding things on the show with the upcoming Drogon/stone men scene we're all anticipating with Jorah and Tyrion, I am definitely excited to find out how far they will go with Tyrion's role in Dany's world. Will he play an even bigger role than just advisor? Is there something prophetic in his own journey that had to happen in the bigger picture? It does seem, from the visions, prophecies and other bits and pieces, that he may play a bigger part. I've read the theories that he might even be one of the heads of the dragon but I've never had a lot of faith in that one. I still don't understand that look the red priestess gave Tyrion - it seemed so ominous to me. I wish she could have spoken to him or given us some kind of clue! The God of Light and the God of Death... the Gods of the North, the Great Other, The Seven. These are definitely themes that George is playing with in the Ice and Fire theories. It's been awhile since I've read any of those long threads on Westeros.org so I decided we should start our own here.  |
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King Tyrion I
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Post by King Tyrion I on May 7, 2015 6:54:13 GMT
envie: you're welcome. =o)
Tyrion *does* have a large shadow. Figuratively. He's a Lannister. And all his backstory at CR and of course, more recently at KL.
I think the priestess seems to feel him and his presence. I don't think she was mad about him because of his comments. I think she knows something about his future. Being with Dany, being an advisor and more than that.
Of course, we could also discuss A+J=T over here. Or if he's one of the dragon riders (I think there's a very good chance for that to happen).
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2015 7:15:58 GMT
Well I don't mind if the thread goes off topic into theories, or you can start one about that particular one. It's been discussed a lot elsewhere and some people hate the 'secret Targ' theories no matter which ones they are, whatever. I don't mind. Some theories go into crackpot territory. I'm always willing to discuss merits of one that has substantial reasonable evidence.
I'll say the only part I really liked in all the dragon theory craft was that Tyrion already has a 'saddle' ready for riding a dragon since he had to design a special one for riding large horses as a dwarf with stunted legs. He also gave the plans for that same saddle to Bran's keepers in Winterfell which was made into a device for him to ride around on Hodor. So there's that theory that both Bran and Tyrion can ride dragons, but that's probably just a lot of wishful thinking hehe.
But to put it back on topic - I guess maybe I was reading too much into the hard stare that priestess gave Tyrion in that scene. He had good reason to be nervous and pull up his hood and move on because he's a wanted man (dwarf) and worth a lot in Westeros so he really should heed Varys warnings more. No good there anyways since he's already captured by Jorah now.
I really want the show to go into more detail about the Red God religion. The only real bits we've had other than Melisandre (who I really think gets overshadowed by the sexual intent) was Thoros/Beric and that was long enough ago it's not a strong point anymore.
If the religion plays any part at all in the reality of the story or it's end goal, I would think they'd be giving us more details - not just vague poetic words from Melisandre. Her stuff gets tiresome to me and is offputting to really understanding things. There were a lot more details in the book of course.
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King Tyrion I
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Post by King Tyrion I on May 7, 2015 7:41:55 GMT
Bran's also shown riding later. It's the scene where Osha gets captured.
Ad theories and stuff: I didn't mean this thread. ;o) Don't worry.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2015 7:59:18 GMT
Bran's also shown riding later. It's the scene where Osha gets captured. Ad theories and stuff: I didn't mean this thread. ;o) Don't worry. He also rides again briefly in ep. 205. |
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on May 7, 2015 8:21:07 GMT
I think my fave Tyrion dragonrider theory I've seen is him riding one in a special saddle while Bran wargs it, coming full circle from Tyrion helping Bran ride a horse.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2015 16:13:04 GMT
Since they chose to eliminate Lady Stoneheart from the show series (much to the dismay of many - I'm ambivalent) ... and Thoros/Beric were seasons ago with no mention since ... what do you all think that means for the 'resurrection' portion of the Red God religion? Melisandre is the only thing we have left to go on. I'm guessing they're holding out for Jon Snow resurrection being the focus now but it just seems like it would have been a more important key focus if the audience had more recent reminders of that power.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2015 16:14:51 GMT
I think my fave Tyrion dragonrider theory I've seen is him riding one in a special saddle while Bran wargs it, coming full circle from Tyrion helping Bran ride a horse. I still think the idea of Tyrion riding a dragon both ridiculous and hilarious  |
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on May 8, 2015 4:11:45 GMT
Since they chose to eliminate Lady Stoneheart from the show series (much to the dismay of many - I'm ambivalent) ... and Thoros/Beric were seasons ago with no mention since ... what do you all think that means for the 'resurrection' portion of the Red God religion? Melisandre is the only thing we have left to go on. I'm guessing they're holding out for Jon Snow resurrection being the focus now but it just seems like it would have been a more important key focus if the audience had more recent reminders of that power. On my last s3 re-watch, the meeting between Mel and Beric/Thoros gave me chills, they have to bring up that power again at some point, right? It's possible one of the reasons LS was cut was so Jon's resurrection could be more unexpected, the show loves its big surprises. |
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