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Post by Enid on May 2, 2019 4:49:23 GMT
As an Arya fan who has been unhappy with how the show portrayed her for so long, I feel vindicated and IDGAF if people didn't like it. I know you're an Arya fan, and I'm happy for you because this was an awesome episode for her. Season 7 was a mess for her characterization, but seeing her kick ass in the Battle as a fully fledged warrior was amazing, and a long time coming. My issue is more about Jon's role in the story, resurrection is a concept that can be easily abused as a plot device, so I was hoping that the writers were using it wisely. At this point, I'm not satisfied but I'm hoping there is more to come to assuage those fears. Thanks!! I'm just glad the show used her assassin skills to save humanity and not a gory vengeance scene for once. I'm happy she was able to reach Bran in time and save him after not being able to do it with Ned, Robb and Cat. I'm happy they are finally showing her caring about people, even those who used to be in her list. I understand why people wanted to see Jon kill the NK. He and Bran are the ones who have dealt with him the most. The thing for me is that they made him super powerful, the guy was killing dragons like it was not a big deal, how could Jon ever win a duel against him? How could Jon ever fight him and not end like Theon? And in this episode we see that the popsicle simply refuses to engage in combat with Jon. He taunts Dany and waits for Theon to have a go at him cause he knows there is no danger in that, but when Jon chases him with Valyrian steel he wakes up more dead people and goes away. Probably because despite all his power, he doesn't want to take risk with Longclaw, after all he saw Jon kill a WW in Hardhome. Jon is the reason the North was able to prepare for the attack. Without Jon the northerners would have been caught unawares, Dany would have been in the south, and Arya would have been working on her revenge list. He had a big role in defeating the NK, even if he wasn't the one to deliver the final blow. At least that's how I see it. |
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Post by Enid on May 2, 2019 6:34:22 GMT
Anyway after the high or episode 3 I'm preparing myself for some kind of slap in the face, like for example Arya not wanting to get any credit or some shit like that.
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Post by kingeomer on May 2, 2019 10:56:47 GMT
TheMadQueen, I do see that about the nose. In the preview for episode 4, we do see Dany celebrating at a meal. Hopefully Arya gets some credit for her kill. We could say all those forces coming together: the North, Dothraki, Unsullied, Dragons, whatever the fuck Bran was doing, Theon and the Ironborn, Dany, Jorah, Jaime, Brienne, Pod, Edd, Sam etc...all got them to this point in order to set things in motion for the NK to be defeated. I can understand folks concerns about the prophecy and how things line up in the story. I don't mind that Arya got the big kill but I understand why people are saying it felt like a narrative cheat and put in there for surprise. I also did not think about (and do like the idea of) that Arya finally got to save a family member when she was unable to do so for Ned, Cat and Robb.
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on May 2, 2019 12:03:42 GMT
The NK also wouldnt have Viserion without Jon’s stupid ass. Show Jon has been a complete dunderhead of bad decisions for ages  Which is what I hated about The Battle of the Bastards. Ned and Rob paid for their tactical blunders. Jon's decisions in this episode should have gotten him killed, but instead he was rewarded with victory thanks to the writing. It was a Peter Jackson battle, and felt very un-ASOIAF to me. The only thing in the back of my mind that could possibly redeem the episode is the thought that a divine power was protecting Jon because he was destined to end the Long Night. Nope. It was just bad writing. I hated BotB too so you won’t see any arguments from me on that front |
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on May 2, 2019 12:10:12 GMT
I know you're an Arya fan, and I'm happy for you because this was an awesome episode for her. Season 7 was a mess for her characterization, but seeing her kick ass in the Battle as a fully fledged warrior was amazing, and a long time coming. My issue is more about Jon's role in the story, resurrection is a concept that can be easily abused as a plot device, so I was hoping that the writers were using it wisely. At this point, I'm not satisfied but I'm hoping there is more to come to assuage those fears. Thanks!! I'm just glad the show used her assassin skills to save humanity and not a gory vengeance scene for once. I'm happy she was able to reach Bran in time and save him after not being able to do it with Ned, Robb and Cat. I'm happy they are finally showing her caring about people, even those who used to be in her list. I understand why people wanted to see Jon kill the NK. He and Bran are the ones who have dealt with him the most. The thing for me is that they made him super powerful, the guy was killing dragons like it was not a big deal, how could Jon ever win a duel against him? How could Jon ever fight him and not end like Theon? And in this episode we see that the popsicle simply refuses to engage in combat with Jon. He taunts Dany and waits for Theon to have a go at him cause he knows there is no danger in that, but when Jon chases him with Valyrian steel he wakes up more dead people and goes away. Probably because despite all his power, he doesn't want to take risk with Longclaw, after all he saw Jon kill a WW in Hardhome. Jon is the reason the North was able to prepare for the attack. Without Jon the northerners would have been caught unawares, Dany would have been in the south, and Arya would have been working on her revenge list. He had a big role in defeating the NK, even if he wasn't the one to deliver the final blow. At least that's how I see it. The bolded is a really nice point, and one i hadnt realised either. Nice. i don’t mind Arya killing the NK, and i’m not fussed whether Jon got to face him down or not (although, to be fair, the show has been hyping up the two of them pretty heavily imo). This just feels like too abrupt an ending for the WW story -paper thin motivations, little to no characterisation...seems like an awful lot of time invested into that story for this to be how it ends. Thats why i love this episode as a standalone feature but in the grander scheme of the show, its not great. Trying to make any sense of Bran’s story and purpose at thisnpoint is an exercise in futility |
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Post by Enid on May 2, 2019 19:27:14 GMT
I enjoyed the episode overall. I think it has a good mix of battle action, horror and drama. Yes, some of the fighting scenes were chaotic and hard to follow, but that was on purpose, to add to the chaos and horror the fighters are feeling. As someone who came out of the last Hobbit movie bored our of her mind and with a terrible headache, I appreciate the restraint and that we didn't get 80 minutes of fighting sequences.
I agree that it feels anti-climatic to end the threat that started the whole story in one episode, but I also think GOT would need a whole season with a blockbuster budget per episode to make it justice. That's the problem of waiting 8 seasons for the big bad to make its move and then solve it all in one single episode. I do have an issue now, which is that I really don't care about the throne and who rules. Hopefully episode 4 will engage me in that conflict again, but right now I only feel boredom when I see Cersei and Euron are still there (sorry to her fans). Emilia has said in an interview that episode 5 is bigger than episode 3 and that feels wrong to me. The fight to save all humanity should be the big event and not who sits on an iron chair.
One more time Ramin Djawadi delievered ten times over. I love how haunting "The Night King" was and you can bet your ass I will get my hands on the Needle remastered theme we got when Arya was fighting on the battlements as soon as I can.
I don't have a problem with the lighting. I've seen a lot of complaints/jokes about how dark it was but I watched it on my computer with the lights off and it was perfectly fine. I think it's appropiate for an episode called "The Long Night" and I'm sure the CGI department was grateful for the help.
Now, the story. Overall I think they did a good job with the battle. You can see that killing the NK is literally the only option because the army of the dead is too big to be defeated in direct combat. The way those extras just throw themselves from walls like they are dolls is a detail I love because it shows how they are just cannon fodder and not regular soldiers. Daenerys once more broke her queenly demeanor and went to save her people because that's what she does, while Jon was the one completely focused on getting the NK as soon as possible. I hope they stop the Dany/Sansa conflict now because most of the people who died were Daenery's dothrakis and unsullied. Her dragons got terribly hurt during the battle, and she lost one of her most loyal protectors. Without her the North would have been destroyed so they better treat her with respect after that.
I have mixed feelings about the Jorah scene because, as great as the show version is, the book version always pops-up in my mind and he's despicable. But credit where is due, he literally refused to die until Dany was safe, and both of them did an amazing job with their acting. They really had great chemistry and I'll miss that.
It was also great to see Brienne, Jaime and Podd fighting side by side and Tormund and Gendry. Sam should have been in the crypts though, he got Edd killed and his survival is the most unrealistic part of the episode.
RIP Lyanna Mormont. Her sass will be missed.
I was a bit dissapointed with the Sansa scenes. They had a perfect opportunity to make a call-back to the battle of Blackwater, in which Sansa kept the people calm while Cersei made snarky remarks. She was not as bad as Cersei, but making a comment about Daenerys while surrounded by her advisors and while she was out there, with her armies, trying to help, was just argh. Missandei was 100% right to stop that stupidity.
Jon may not have been the one to kill the NK, but he did as much as he could during the fight. He and Dany roasted the dead army and got the NK off Viserion, taking away a huge strategic advantage. Jon's personality also appears in the way he is concerned about Bran but asks Dany before he tries to get to the goodswood and his desperate attempt to save his brother. I could feel his frustation and desperation when he just says fuck it and screams to an undead dragon because he is going to try to save his brother and no blue fire is going to stop him. He's also the reason Dany was there, along with her armies. Without him Arya does not return home and is not there to use her abilities. Jon was key in saving humanity despite not killing the NK.
I already explained why I though it makes sense to not have a duel between the NK and Jon so I'll skip that.
Theon broke my heart. The way he defended Bran until the last moment, knowing he was going to die but trying anyway because he promised he would do it. He was exhausted, he was terrified. And he did it anyway, because he was the last man standing between Bran and death.
And then we have Arya. My baby. My girl. I can't believe they allowed her to get dick and slay the NK in the same night. After season 7 it feels too good to be true and I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.
She fought those wights like a boss, she sneaked past them like a boss, but she was also overwhelmed by their numbers and scared. I love how the Hound got over his PTSD the second he saw her in danger, I love that he and Beric went inside the castle to help her. I love how she tried to save Beric and kept reaching for him as the Hound dragged her away. I love that a character that has been surrounded by death since the end of season 1, a character who followed death and served the god of death until she rejected it and reclaimed her identity was the one to literally look death in the face and say "Not today". It makes narrative sense despite the lack of build-up.
And I mean it, there was no real build-up. You can see some clues in the last few seasons (Bran gives her the dagger, she does the hand-switch with Brienne,"how did you sneak up on me?" "how did you survive a knife through the heart?" "I didn't") but D&D admitted the decision was made only three years ago and I won't be one of those fans who bends over backwards to look for hints in the older seasons. The "eyes you'll shut forever" was completely retconned to get a new meaning in this episode. They didn't want Jon to kill the NK because they thought it would be too obvious, they looked for a character that could be stealthy enough to attack the NK by surprise, and Arya just happened to fit. It's a very good fit, but they definitely did not write Arya's arc with this scene in mind. At least not until season 6 at the earliest, most likely season 7.
I do find hilarious book fans screaming and crying and writing post after post explaining how wrong the show is and how Arya could never be TPTWP in the books. Arya fans know this. We know it's a show only thing. We just don't care because we can finally enjoy the Arya scenes again.
So yeah, a good episode. Not perfect, but it left me shaking with anxiety and I enjoyed it.
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Post by Father of Dragons on May 2, 2019 22:14:19 GMT
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Post by Singer of Death on May 3, 2019 20:39:16 GMT
Oh God poor Isaac. |
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Post by Father of Dragons on May 3, 2019 23:36:10 GMT
So.. I see Mel, Theon, Viserion, Beric and maybe Dany? Can anyone here make out anyone else? Gonna be honest this one's not my favourite. It's a bit too busy.  |
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on May 3, 2019 23:40:03 GMT
So.. I see Mel, Theon, Viserion, Beric and maybe Dany? Can anyone here make out anyone else? Gonna be honest this one's not my favourite. It's a bit too busy. I thought the same and i generally love them. I also think it looks more sci-fi as strange as it sounds |
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on May 3, 2019 23:43:38 GMT
So.. I see Mel, Theon, Viserion, Beric and maybe Dany? Can anyone here make out anyone else? Gonna be honest this one's not my favourite. It's a bit too busy. Bottom left, the NK Bottom right, Edd i think Next to Edd is Qotho i think (Dany’s BR) top left is Lyanna Mormont (giant blue eye, bear in the pupil, lyanna with the dagger in front) |
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Post by Damorian on May 5, 2019 10:25:09 GMT
Hmmm, this is a bloody tricky one it's taken me a week to process/work through my feelings for. But have returned to these hallowed boards to (try and) do just that ...  Tbh, (wo)man of the match for me was Mel, all the way. If everything gave me the MIGHTY RED GOD FEELS  that Melisandre did in that episode with the flaming Arakhs or the lighting of the trench, (hell, even her lower key but sublimely moving exit: what a choker - pun intended) this episode would undoubtedly be a high point not just of the season for me, but the series as a whole. But frankly, the hotly debated darkness levels (oh how the mass media at large loves an easily identifiable target when they know little else about the workings of a show... ) were the least of this one's problems in that uneven second half: Where to begin? 1./ Jon needed something more to do in the third act (i.e: engage the Walkers protecting the Godswood?) other than be pinned down by Viscerion. Before his dragon-roar, there are actually two near idenfical sections of him ducking behind a stone archway from blue flame during the slow-mo piano montage, one of which could easily have been jettisoned/replaced. 2./ Beric's final death underwhelmed me, tbh. You can't stage a hold the door moment, post-Hodor, and expect it to carry weight. How can you waste Richard Dormer's stunning voice in an episode about death? It's the guy's specialist subject, FFS. Imagine the haunts of Beric taking the blows, maybe imagining seeing Thoros smiling sadly back at him at the end of that dark corridor to a voiceover of some of his unused book dialogue like: "Can I dwell on what I scarce remember? I held a castle on The Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the colour of that woman's hair. Who knighted me, old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. Are you my mother, Thoros?" 3./ We've had post-traumatic fire Hound before at Blackwater. BETTER post-traumatic Hound. 4./ Sam repeatedly cowering beneath piles of wights, repeatedly unscathed. Besides the blatant plot-armour, it was insulting to his character progression to this point as the first nightwatchman to off a walker with dragonglass. And after the horror fucking masterclass of all those Dothraki flames petering out on the horizon, it was criminally dull. Surely NOW was the time to show him breaking free of the whimpering man-boy routine to man up, lose his shit, and roar? John Bradley is putting a brave face on it, but God, he must have been disappointed how they handled his character here after two great Samwell episodes back-to-back. 5./ Despite an Entertainment Weekly cover somehow making it seem as though they'd done a major NK prosthetics upgrade, on screen in the cut it's the same godawful rubbery Wallmart Hallloween mask look that makes him look like Squidward from Spongebob Squarepants. (Man, the Richard Brake design at Hardhome worked SO much better. Furdik seems a decent guy and talented stuntman but in the silent acting stakes, Brake performed the character so much better, imo.) 6./ And ohhh boy, last but by no means least: Yep. No damn getting away from it. After seven seasons of build up, the NK's death DID feel cheap. Having an evil horde spontaneously implode, en masse, when the head honcho is taken out is such a generic sci-fi/fantasy trope, how could it NOT, frankly? Steeped in lore and symbolism, this plotline DEMANDED something better than super-OP-ninja-girl winning the day ... AGAIN. I mean, does she EVER not hit her mark? We've already seen the "Arya beats the big bad" scenario play out before in Thrones, so I'm still at a complete loss to understand how D&D wouldn't have anticipated this kind of backlash/reaction to winding down the series' major plotline in this way. Is it ultimately a book point? Who cares. I'm pretty sure GRRM won't teleport Arya past a circle of lethal foes neatly to her target. Happy for Maisie cuz she's great, but on screen? It felt an utter cop out, no matter the continuity of Mel's blue eyes comment, or the lineage through the series of the dagger - and frankly, if she tries more parkour/ninja/faceswap shit on Cersei, it's high time for a girl's luck to run dry. Okay, there's now Furdik's cryptic comments on Twitter and the whole Kimmel interview with D&D alluding to holding something back (damage limitation?) Maybe wishful thinking, but I can't believe there isn't SOMETHING more still lurking to trip us up here. Some nugget gleaned from Bran during his offscreen weirwood/raven surf; some double bluff by the NK to willingly walk into an obvious trap? Is he really just a cheap macguffin villain and if so, with all their knowledge of fantasy tropes to this point in subverting genre, couldn't they have foreseen that's how the scene would make him appear? I'm not convinced D&D are the hacks they get lambasted as on places like Reddit or a forum of ice & fire - at least, I don't WANT to believe it. But bottom line: I'm more at a crossroads with my affection for GOT and its showrunners talents than I've ever been - even with the cutting of LSH - and never before will my final judgement of an episode hinge so much on the episode coming after. Never in my wildest nightmares did I think the icy talons of the final season of LOST would claw back into my mindset with the endgame of a show like GOT. But for now, I'll keep an open mind, cross my fingers that these doubts will be rebuffed somehow and it goes out with a bang. 7.5 for this one, elevated to an 8 or 9 if they somehow manage to pull something clever tomorrow morning from wreck. Like I said, not holding my breath though. In which case this rather sardonic Reddit image may well be our lot as to the fate of deeper theories:  |
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that Melisandre did in that episode with the flaming Arakhs or the lighting of the trench, (hell, even her lower key but sublimely moving exit: what a choker - pun intended) this episode would undoubtedly be a high point not just of the season for me, but the series as a whole.