|
Post by Father of Dragons on Sept 23, 2021 22:53:07 GMT
There are certain things that the movie only hints at, that are explored in far more depth in the novel. Qui-Gon's relationship to Obi-Wan is one such thing, the author made a point to demonstrate the many ways in which they are opposites of each other. I find this super interesting because the fact that it was Obi-Wan, not Qui-Gon, who ended up teaching Anakin definitely played a part in his downfall. Obi-Was was a brother to him, but what Anakin really needed was the parental figure that Qui-Gon would have been, so in his absence, Palpatine ended up assuming that role. When Qui-Gon offers to take Anakin as his padawan, this leads to conflict between him and Obi-Wan, something that, again, is only hinted at in the movie, but explored in detail in the novel. Obi-Wan almost comes off as a bit unlikeable at certain points where he did not in the movie, not because the author changed who Obi-Wan is, but because he is not a POV character. Qui-Gon is, so we only hear Qui-Gon's thoughts and perspective on things like the Jedi council and Anakin, which are often in direct opposition to Obi-Wan's. Very interesting you mention this, I remember watching a behind the scenes thing for I think the Mandalorian, and Dave Filoni (creator of various tv things and very close to Lucas) was talking about Duel of the Fates: why it's called that and how it works into the overall story - and it's basically exactly what you're saying. The idea that if Qui-Gon lives, the story would head in a completely different direction, and so it's very much like that duel is a fight for the fate of the galaxy.
If I'm being honest I at first thought that was a sort of retroactive attempt to add depth to the prequels, or just reading something that was never intended, but actually now I think it's pretty spot on. Duel of the Fates is used sparingly through the trilogy: the Maul duel, when Yoda fights Sidious (which is a literal duel for the fate of the galaxy so not very subtle), and thirdly when Anakin goes to save his mother - a lowkey but pivotal moment which would've changed a lot had it happened differently - and that usage in particular is what convinced me that actually there was a lot of thought put into that aspect of the trilogy, it just doesn't come across super well from the movies themselves obviously. I'm talking about the music again someone please stop me.
I've not listened to/read them myself, but I've definitely heard a lot of good things about the ROTS novelisation.
Is it just the novelisations you're sticking to or are you tempted by any of the other books? I can tell you're on a bit of a prequel binge at the moment, unfortunately I think in terms of the "new canon" (which doesn't matter that much of course) there's kind of a dearth of pure prequel novels. There's a book that explores Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's relationship pre-TPM, a Padme trilogy, and an adaptation of a cancelled Clone Wars arc, but that's about it I think. There'd be millions of Legends stuff though I imagine.
Am I right in thinking you're quite far through now?
|
|
|
Post by Basil on Sept 25, 2021 20:18:36 GMT
Am I right in thinking you're quite far through now? I'm about 50 episodes in. Still have a ways to go, but I knew about Darth Maul even before I started watching the show. I also lowkey spoiled myself by watching a compilation video on YT of some of Maul's scenes in Clone Wars and Rebels, and now I can't wait to get to that stuff in the show. I'm talking about this video: I'm really loving it though. I do wish there was less filler, but when the show is good, it's great, and I love the fact that it humanizes the clones so much. I freaking cried during some of the scenes between Waxer and Boil and that Twi'lek girl on Ryloth.
|
|
|
Post by Basil on Oct 1, 2021 21:40:24 GMT
This is super interesting! The fact that the Death Star wasn't about to destroy the rebel base in the first cut, and that this entire part of the story was fabricated in editing just blew my mind, son. So, turns out, the implication that Star Wars was "saved in the edit", and didn't just go through the same, normal editing process that most movies do, is extremely misleading and aims to discredit George Lucas. I'd honestly implore everyone who watched it and just accepted it as fact (like I did) to watch this, too: The Star Wars fandom has a strange tendency to diminish George Lucas's contributions to the franchise. There is this pretty common but baseless sentiment that the original trilogy worked not because of him, but despite him, that he surrounded himself with people way more talented than him who saved his trainwreck of an idea. I'm guilty of that myself. Not proud of it, but in the past, I've definitely allowed things like the Red Letter Media reviews to influence my opinion on George Lucas as a filmmaker and tarnish my appreciation for the prequels, which I loved back in the day when they first came out, before the internet told me I wasn't allowed to. That's why I find the response video to the "saved in the edit" sentiment so important.
|
|
|
Post by Basil on Oct 22, 2021 22:06:16 GMT
whooooo!!! so glad he's finally getting the recognition he deserves
|
|
|
Post by Basil on Mar 9, 2022 23:03:44 GMT
I'm so hyped for this.
|
|
|
Post by Father of Dragons on Mar 9, 2022 23:53:32 GMT
I've been watching it on a loop since it was posted. With Duel of the Fates and Battle of the Heroes together how can I not! I was originally hoping for something a bit quieter and character-focused rather than spectacle although judging from how they've described it previously and now from this trailer that's clearly not the direction they're going. But after Book of Boba Fett I am so sick of Tatooine I'll take anything set elsewhere, and this definitely looks like it will deliver on the spectacle, so sign me up! I just wish they'd made the Grand Inquisitor look better. It won't ruin the show for me or anything but it does look a bit like cosplay considering his animated look and other live-action Pau'ans. But other than that yeah it looks pretty amazing. And unrelated but did you manage to finish Clone Wars?
|
|
|
Post by Basil on Apr 7, 2022 11:18:59 GMT
And unrelated but did you manage to finish Clone Wars? Not quite. I watched in chronological order up until the Mon Cala storyline in season 4, but then I got distracted with other things and haven't gotten back to it yet. I do still intend to finish it, though.
|
|
|
Post by Basil on May 27, 2022 7:37:31 GMT
How do y'all feel about the first two episodes of the Obi-Wan series?
Honestly, it's kind of a mixed bag for me. I love having Ewan back playing Obi-Wan, and I loved seeing Alderaan and Tatooine, Luke and Leia, but overall, I felt that the writing and directing were severely lacking, especially in regard to the Inquisitors. The plot in these first two episodes was super contrived and meandering, and there were a couple of scenes that were so badly directed, it was almost laughable (mainly I'm talking about the two Leia chase scenes). I think the potential is there for the next episodes to be much better, amazing even, but if I didn't love the prequels as much, I probably wouldn't be super interested to find out based on what I've seen so far. So far, the show is carried by nostalgia and actors from previous movies, and not much more.
Also, the lack of recognizable Star Wars music was extremely noticeable and disappointing. In a show that relies on nostalgia so much, it seems like such a strange omission to not include any music from the previous movies. There were several moments that would have been made more impactful in my opinion had they used recognizable Star Wars motifs like Leia's Theme or Binary Sunset. The new soundtrack was very forgettable.
|
|
|
Post by Basil on May 27, 2022 7:48:05 GMT
Also, it's so strange that Obi-Wan had to be told that Anakin was still alive. Like, he knew in ROTS that Anakin had taken on the Sith name Darth Vader, and by the time A New Hope takes place, Vader is a publicly known figure in the Empire. I always assumed Obi-Wan must have figured out himself that Anakin had survived Mustafar. It strikes me as extremely weird and implausible that for ten years, Obi-Wan believed Anakin to be dead, while Vader was out there wreaking havoc.
|
|
|
Post by Father of Dragons on Jun 2, 2022 13:08:29 GMT
Honestly I’m also pretty mixed on Kenobi. I feel like there was so much potential and it could’ve been so much more, but they’ve just missed the mark on a few things. I’m not film-savvy enough to know if my issues are with the direction, the cinematography, the editing, or all of those at once, but something just feels off. Plot-wise, it’s just fine so far. I’ve thought about it a bit and I’m ok with Leia being involved, but I think she works better as the catalyst to get him on the Empire’s radar - she shouldn’t still be part of the story heading into episode 4. I suspect what’s been identified by some as acting problems with the Inquisitors is more of a direction issue. And the writing, of course. Establishing that this brand-new character has beef with Obi-Wan before introducing Obi-Wan himself is so bizarre. There are two problems here: scenes are both missing and out-of-order. They’ve jumped part-way into Reva’s story before giving me a reason to care. My main mistake was watching 8+ hours of Stranger Things between episodes 2 and 3. Netflix pumped an absurd amount of money into that (comparable to Episode IX!) and it definitely shows, but I feel like the aspects of ST4 that work best aren’t down to the budget, they’re down to the skills of the filmmakers. I don’t need Kenobi to have that insane a budget but it does feel… almost cheap in some aspects. Third episode especially suffered from that with the road checkpoint, the wall of fire, and my god that throne room. The score should be better. You’re right - it’s strange that the show has so many cameos and references to other Star Wars media but none of the music. I would call it restraint but they went to the effort of bringing in Temuera Morrison for a cameo so I can’t understand the lack of familiar music. I hope this isn’t another case of being baited by Duel of the Fates in the marketing only for it to not be used at all. I’m not totally pessimistic though - I do think it’ll get better. The third episode was already an improvement on the two before. I guess between Clone Wars, Rebels and Bad Batch, I’m a bit sick of “just keep watching, it gets good” in Star Wars TV. Surely they should know by now how to start well. Also, it's so strange that Obi-Wan had to be told that Anakin was still alive. Like, he knew in ROTS that Anakin had taken on the Sith name Darth Vader, and by the time A New Hope takes place, Vader is a publicly known figure in the Empire. I always assumed Obi-Wan must have figured out himself that Anakin had survived Mustafar. It strikes me as extremely weird and implausible that for ten years, Obi-Wan believed Anakin to be dead, while Vader was out there wreaking havoc. I prefer him finding out onscreen since it’s just a bit more interesting to see his reaction, but yeah it’s inconsistent. I like the idea of Vader not being super well-known across the galaxy, though I’d forgotten that Ben already knew in ANH so I suppose they needed to justify him knowing. It’s just a consequence of Tatooine being the most popular backwater planet in the galaxy. I found it odd that a random Tatooine bartender knew who the Inquisitors were and what they do despite there being only about a dozen of them in a galaxy of trillions. And, of course, he’s harbouring a Jedi who also just happens to be on the planet as well. As you said some things just feel very contrived.
|
|
|
Post by Father of Dragons on Jun 2, 2022 13:17:18 GMT
That wall of text is very negative so I'll just add some things I liked: - The Grand Inquisitor looked much better than in the trailer.
- Loved Joel Edgerton as Uncle Owen, and Leia's actress is also great.
- I actually really enjoyed the Temuera cameo even if it was a bit superfluous, as well as the mention of Vos
- I'm still really looking forward to Hayden as Anakin, flashbacks definitely on the way!
|
|
|
Post by Basil on Jun 8, 2022 22:38:05 GMT
It pains me to admit this, but four episodes in, I'm still not enjoying it. I think Kenobi might be the worst written and directed piece of Star Wars live-action I have ever seen. It sucks because I was looking forward to and really wanted to love this show, but it just isn't ... good. The storyline as written I think is incredibly dull. I find Reva to be absolutely insufferable as a character, and even something as momentous as the Vader/Obi-Wan confrontation didn't deliver the way it should have, at least not for me. I didn't feel the personal connection between these two characters at all, it just felt hollow and pointless. The directing makes the lackluster story even worse somehow. There is stuff in here that's legit bizarre in how bad it is. How does a director look at something like the Leia chase scene in episode one, or Leia hiding under Obi-Wan's trenchcoat in episode four, and conclude that, yeah, that's definitely not the most ridiculously dumb thing anyone has ever seen. Good job, me. It's honestly baffling, I could not believe what I was seeing. There are scenes in this show that feel like they're from a Star Wars parody. I hate to be this negative, but I'm genuinely deeply disappointed. There are some moments and scenes here and there that are alright, the girl who plays Leia does a good enough job and she definitely conveys the essence of the character pretty well. Ewan is giving it all he's got and all my favorite scenes so far have been of Obi-Wan and Leia bonding. I'm still holding out hope that Hayden will get his moment in the spotlight as well. But overall, I just cannot get over how dull and empty this show turned out to be. It could have been an introspective exploration of Obi-Wan's grief and trauma, him coming to terms with what happened to the Jedi and Anakin, looking over and interacting with Luke. I don't understand how we ended up with this mess. Really hope they get their shit together and start to invest in better writers and directors who have stories to tell that are actually meaningful, because if Kenobi is exemplary for the quality of the storytelling we can expect going forward, I'm not feeling super hopeful about the future of Disney Star Wars right now. Hate that this is the material Ewan and Hayden were brought back for, they both deserve a much better show. I prefer him finding out onscreen since it’s just a bit more interesting to see his reaction, but yeah it’s inconsistent. I like the idea of Vader not being super well-known across the galaxy, though I’d forgotten that Ben already knew in ANH so I suppose they needed to justify him knowing. It’s just a consequence of Tatooine being the most popular backwater planet in the galaxy. I found it odd that a random Tatooine bartender knew who the Inquisitors were and what they do despite there being only about a dozen of them in a galaxy of trillions. And, of course, he’s harbouring a Jedi who also just happens to be on the planet as well. As you said some things just feel very contrived. I think realistically, Obi-Wan would have found out about Anakin's survival years before this show takes place, probably shortly after ROTS honestly. Even on a backwater planet like Tatooine, I feel like the name of the Emperor's brutal enforcer would have been known at least in whispers and rumors, which would have been enough for Obi-Wan to put two and two together. Vader was enigmatic, but not exactly subtle. I totally get that it makes sense dramatically for this show that Obi-Wan finds out onscreen, but I really don't think it was a question that needed answering. This is far from being the show's biggest problem and that scene where he finds out was one of the better ones, but I still feel like it's bogus storytelling.
|
|
|
Post by Basil on Jun 22, 2022 8:22:53 GMT
Kenobi really turned it around in these last two episodes. The show went from a lowkey dumpster fire to basically everything I wanted it to be, which makes me happy, but still doesn't excuse how inept the first four episodes were.
I really loved how they showed Vader to be very conflicted. He's still very much Anakin Skywalker, even though he says he's not, which is obviously what left the door open for Luke to reach him and bring him back in ROTJ. Hayden was so great. My favorite thing about this show is the fact that it brought him back to the franchise, and having the entire fanbase shower him with love. Really appreciated the flashback to Anakin as a padawan, and in the final episode when his mask was partially destroyed, hearing Vader speak with Hayden's distorted voice as well as James Earl Jones' was so haunting. "You didn't kill Anakin Skywalker. I did." that line and the hint of a twisted smile on his face gave me shivers. This was for me by far the best scene in the entire show. It's what I wanted most from it and was getting worried we weren't gonna get it: acknowledgment of the fact that these two men used to love each other as brothers. The duel itself was kinda lame tbh, and both of them throwing rocks at each other with the force was a bit too video gamey, but the confrontation afterwards was chef's kiss. (would have been even better with John Williams music, though)
Speaking of John Williams, they did use some of his music in the last ten minutes of the final episode, which I guess is better than nothing. Unsurprisingly, I was a mess when Obi-Wan told Leia about her parents and Leia's Theme was playing. I guess had they used her theme before, it might have lessened the impact of this moment, but I think they could and should have at least hinted at it in the music they wrote for the show. The fact that it was one hundred percent original and unrecognizable made the whole show feel removed from the rest of the franchise, John Williams is simply too much an integral part of the identity of Star Wars. It just boggles my mind that they used Duel of the Fates in the trailer, but there wasn't even a hint of it played in the actual show.
The cast was really good. Reva redeemed herself completely as a character in my eyes. I was genuinely feeling for her in the last two episodes and I'm open to seeing more of her in the future. Ewan and Hayden I already talked about, I just adore them both so much and I'm so happy to have them back and experience the love of the fandom. Little Leia, while I don't think an amazing child actress per se, really grew on me as the show went on. She really nailed the mannerisms and general attitude of adult Leia so well. I can absolutely believe that this little girl and the woman we see in ANH are the same person. Also, was not expecting to see Liam Neeson back, even if this was just for a few seconds, but the more prequels love, the better. Now we only need a way to bring Natalie Portman back.
So even though I stand by what said about the first half of the show, the last two episodes were really fucking good and in retrospect redeemed the whole thing for me. Though if I were to rewatch it, I'd probably skip the middle section or watch it at double speed, just to get to the good stuff.
|
|
|
Post by Basil on Jun 22, 2022 16:20:00 GMT
when you lowkey wish for a second season of Kenobi, even though the first ended on a perfect note
|
|
|
Post by day dreamer on Jul 3, 2022 21:11:03 GMT
I loved the Darth Vader/Kenobi scenes. They were perfect, I don't think I could've asked for anything better.
I wanted more of Owen and Beru though, they were great. I wouldn't say no to a second season, but I agree, it ended perfectly.
|
|
|
Post by Father of Dragons on Jul 4, 2022 23:11:58 GMT
Sad to say, but it's only been about a week since Kenobi finished, and I've already kinda forgotten it.
Generally speaking I agree on what worked - the returning cast were all great and I think some of the new additions were pretty good too. The prequel references in the narrative could've easily turned this into a fan-servicey mess, but I thought they were also handled pretty well.
I'm usually not the type of viewer to pick up on some of the more technical aspects of filmmaking like editing and camerawork, but I did notice them here, and unfortunately not in a good way. There was far too much shakycam throughout - that mixed with the extreme low-angle and overhead shots just made all the fight scenes look very messy, and while I enjoy how they use actual lightsabers for light sources, the rest of the fight scenes are just too dark to be engaging imo. This show more than anything really shows the limits of the Volume for filming.
I can't help but notice how much they borrowed elements from both Rebels and Fallen Order. It's actually quite shameless how much they take - from breaking into the Inquisitors' Fortress to Vader's mask being split open, there are a lot of egregious examples. Interestingly Reva, who I'd thought would end up as a less-compelling Second Sister, was actually the newest idea in the show with her motivation. Though I think with both her and Leia, the writers just didn't know when to stop - imo Leia shouldn't be in the show beyond episode 2 and Reva beyond episode 5, they both felt quite redundant after that. I can't even work out what Reva's goal is in the last episode and I'm not sure I ever will.
The music is my biggest disappointment, and probably what's causing me to be so overly negative. I just don't understand what they were going for, especially since in the final episode they literally include a new spin on the asteroid chase theme - why was this not the musical goal throughout the show? Baffling. And while I get that Duel of the Fates probably wouldn't work with the smaller scale they're going for in the duels, it just seems cheap to use it all over the marketing. One day I'll stop falling for that.
In a year's time I'm sure I'll be less nitpicky, but I'll always think that this could've been so much more. I'd also not say no to a second season, but frankly given how they struggled to find a story for one season and this was the end product, I can't say I have much hope.
|
|
|
Post by Mecha-StannisForever on Jul 5, 2022 22:28:29 GMT
Kenobi was really cool, but it seemed like you could have cut a good chunk of that show, and still had a very strong narrative focused around just the Inquistors, Vader and Kenobi. I liked the stuff with Reva, I don't think it matters so much that it was pretty obvious from the start, since it didn't really need to be a revelation, nor do I think it was really meant to be one. It's just that the story dragged out a bit too much.
Leia was pretty annoying to me, and a lot of the cutesy moments felt very jarring, I have to wonder if these were some of the elements that were apparently added in to lessen the dark tone of the show? There were some good moments where she talked about her parents with Obi Wan, but I dunno if that was worth stretching out the show so much. That said, I tend to hate child characters as a rule, because they always usually wind up being written the same, at which point I really have to wonder if any of these writers have ever interacted with an actual child, but that's another thing entirely. Episode 2 was definitely the worst example of this for me, with the whole sub-narrative where Leia winds up thinking Obi Wan is evil, chase, drama ensues. Yawn. Oh, and L0-LA literally existed to sell toys. That kind of sucks. I know a lot Star Wars stuff just exists to sells toys, but if I my first reaction when I see a character pop up is "yep, that's merchandise", then you're doing something wrong.
That said, everything with Vader was amazing. I really don't think there was a moment I disliked with Vader, I feel like they nailed the sheer intimidation of the OG Vader, and the emotionally driven Anakin. Felt like the logical meeting point between the two. The scene with Vader unmasked was also, just beautiful.
I'm glad they saved Qui Gon till the end. It was a nice little treat to finish off with. Also nice to see Palpatine pop up. I would have been surprised if he didn't, but it was still appreciated, plus his conversation with Vader had some real ROTS vibes, which is a big plus to me since he was one of the highlights of that movie.
The music was very generic. I don't know if it was bad, but it's not something I'd listen to the same way I'd listen to some of WIlliams' stuff. It's weird because there are plenty of Star Wars games and tv shows that have managed to replicate/imitate the style really well, so I dunno why they wouldn't do so here. It feels like a conscious decision was made not to do that, but in future, can we not?
|
|
|
Post by Basil on Jul 26, 2022 21:36:09 GMT
fuck
|
|
|
Post by Father of Dragons on Jul 31, 2022 0:14:42 GMT
Damn. Star Wars games must be cursed.
|
|
|
Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Aug 17, 2022 20:29:54 GMT
is everyone here excited for andor?
|
|