The Mother of Dragons: Daenerys Stormborn

It does get frustrating when all signs start to point to Jon's legitimacy over Dany's and the show is emphasizing him a lot this season. Not because he's the more likely one to 'win' the throne (I don't personally wish that on either of them) but because people seem to increasingly dislike Daenerys and the 'madness' trope keeps coming up over and over. I know @nictarion and I have talked about it before and I'm sure you have too @moiaf.

Quite frankly I really don't think there is even going to be a throne to fight over and it's pointless. Those who keep getting hung up on the argument of legitimacy are as bad as Dickon Tarly saying White Walkers don't exist. It's narrow minded thinking.

It also makes no sense to try and argue inheritance and 'rights' in this story when Robert Baratheon or anyone else can just conquer it and take it anyways. Daenerys could conquer and take it from Tommen if he's still alive and her claim would be legit whether she was a Targaryen or not. Jon Snow isn't going to go waltzing in there and say his right is greater than hers after she just took it anyways. If anyone thinks the story is going that way, they are reading an entirely different story.

hahaha envie

Dany is awesome because she achieved so much greatness and is a little girl in a man's world.

If Dany were a man, she wouldn't have to constantly prove herself. But she does, and she constantly proves them wrong

@envie and @igrewupinkl

Love this discussion.

II think GRRM has been very successful in challenging our expectation of what a fantasy is like. He uses tropes within his story like all other authors, however, he has been successful in turning many of these troops on their heads. This in turn has lead many fans to believe that all tropes will be turn on their head, that we must challenge everything we learn, that it can't be this way because GRRM would never be that obvious. In here is where the problem lies for a lot of our favorite characters. The Jon hate is that he's too much like the bastard who then turns out to be a Prince or a King. This very well might be where GRRM is heading but as an author, he will probably change the way we get from A to Z and make it his own. Dany as the young,, exiled princes, who was abused and sold could never rise to be a queen, she has to become an evil queen. Because if she were to just be one of the good guys than it wold be so obvious that she was a hero.

Dany and Jon are heroes but they aren't the typical heroes. Jon isn't off looking for adventure trying to prove himself anymore, he tried that and it turned out real bad for him. So now he's change, I'm not yet sure how, but we will see a different ind of hero. Dany on the other hand started as the good princess but has gotten darker as she's grown and experience a very dark world. Does she automatically become a villain because she's been changed by the world around her? No, she is on a journey where she needs to find balance between the mother and the dragon. This duality is an important part of who she is.

GRRM can keep the hero troop but he can also change is and make it his own. Not everything needs to be turned pride down.

I feel your pain... my main problem with Jon as the Targaryen heir is that... he doesn't come across as a Targaryen at all? The very first time I read the books my immediate impression was that he's Dany's antithesis; ice to her fire. He's a guy who has spent his entire life in the North in Winterfell, but once the story begins to travels to a giant wall made of ice and dwells there since then. His name is Snow and he's an alleged bastard of House Stark, the former Kings of Winter, whose ancestral greatsword is named Ice and whose words are Winter is coming. He's the only boy to inherit the quintessential Stark looks*, his demeanor tends to be described as cold, he gets the special direwolf in the colors of the old gods still worshipped only in the North, in Dany's HotU vision his symbolic representation is a blue winter rose... And in the books it appears his body will stored in the ice cells before he is resurrected.

(*That isn't very icy as such, but they certaonly fit the North better than the Tully red and blue: the North is supposed to be a hard, extensive, sparsely populated, not very fertile land with summer snows. It makes sense that people that represent it come in muted sad colors and aren't strikingly handsome or beautiful. OTOH the Riverlands are supposed to be lush, green, and fertile, so it's no wonder that the Tullys come with bright colors and atractive looks.)

Add to that he displays a total lack of any typically Targaryen traits whatsoever: no Valyrian hair or eyes, no dragon dreams, no fondness for fire. Now, you can say that living in the old gods influenced land in Winterfell and on the Wall, in the construction of that was involved Northern magic overwhelmed whatever Valyrian spark he might have had and his resurrection on the hands of a red priestess will wake it again... but part of me still doesn't feel it. He has been Jon Snow for five freaking books, and I would much rather see him turned into a cold-hearted, hardened, unyielding Northman than a passionate, volatile R'hllor follower with a sudden desire for heat and dragons.

I can't help it but turning him into the *main* face of the Targaryens would feel strange and a bit forced. That position has belonged to Dany since the beginning, and I believe it will remain so. OTOH Jon has always been Starker than the Stark kids, so to speak. If there's any family he should represent it's House Stark. It doesn't matter who his bio father was, he was raised as a Stark.

It would be like turning Dany into a scion of House Blackwood because she happens to be part Blackwood. It doesn't mean she will start identifying with the First Men or worshipping the old gods. She may, but it hasn't been a part in her life five books in.

Well said! 

I had completely forgotten that subtle clue from Tyrion and since Aegon is cut from the show, that wonderful tidbit is lost to most. 

I do think Daenerys and possibly Jon both may end up giving their lives to save those they love in the end. Jon may sit the throne but I highly doubt he'll want it or like it. Then again they say that's how it goes for true leaders, not something they want to do but have to do reluctantly. 

So many fans (even in a thread I read here just today) keep having the "Losing the forest for the trees" problem. They are trying to unravel how Daenerys will take King's Landing or be accepted by the people and how she will just demand it because of her Targaryen heritage. The irony to me is that none of that's even going to matter (and half of it won't probably even happen on the show) because as soon as Daenerys makes it to Westeros, the bigger picture will be front and center. That's the kick in the pants for her story arc I look forward to seeing. Daenerys wants to free the people from oppression but slavery was just a warm up to the real deal that's coming down from the North. I can't wait to see how it goes down - even though I do fear for her life! 

She probably won't be happy with what he tried to do, but I think the dragons liking him will help his case. And like you said, she needs him for his knowledge of Westeros.

Tyrion will redeem himself i have no doubt. I think Dany will forgive him because his mistake wasn't that great. The masters would have attacked anyway. And i don't think she'll dwell on it in the midst of an attack.

Tyrion will prove himself once he deals with people who are more political. A chance for him is coming up also with the Greyjoys inevitably meeting Dany. Tyrion can tell her everything she needs to know about them and how to proceed with dealings. The masters of slavers bay are not into politics. They just want their way or no way, very black and white. Tyrion's tactics were never going to persuade them.

@witchy

Yeah I think this may be proof dany doesn't need any other riders. But I don't think this also means there can't be

I think Dany appreciated his questioning of Theon too.  Even though it might have seemed harsh, Tyrion has no idea what Theon has been through these last few seasons and since Theon turned on the Starks, Tyrion had every right to question Theon's ability to be loyal and get that out in the open before Dany.

I like the fact that he knows Dany doesn't know a lot about Westeros at the moment and I am glad the show is having her realize that yes, her father wasn't such a great king and she wants to right the wrongs.  Same with Yara, who does not idolize her father either.