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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 6:45:21 GMT
So here's the thing: everyone can surely agree that Dorne has not been all that successful so far. Not very many people like it, to put it mildly. This thread is not about saying Dorne has been fantastic, but merely to pick through the criticisms and balance them out a bit, and also to point out that watching Dorne always from a place of hate simply makes you exaggerate its problems.
The fact is, if you were not pining for the book version of things as you think they will play out, and if you were not already prejudiced by hate for the characters, then it was actually very possible to find the developments in Dorne in the season 6 premiere to be exciting and intriguing.
A good place to start transforming your thinking on Dorne, for the sake of better enjoyment of the show, is to read BryndenBFish's interesting analysis of where things in books and show regarding Dorne might in fact be more similar than people assume:
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4gjr7l/spoilers_everything_the_prince_the_watcher_and/
On the rest of this thread I will pick apart common criticisms I have seen about Dorne to look at the scenes in question from a different angle.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 7:01:22 GMT
I will start with the prison scene where Tyene flirts with Bronn.
I have seen many comments saying this scene was pointless, that it existed only in order to increase the boob count, etc.
In fact, the scene was necessary in order to understand later events. In that scene we learned that Tyene makes liberal use of poison. One poison she uses takes quite a while to have an effect, particularly without an elevated pulse. She carries an antidote with her in a necklace. All of this is needed in order to understand Myrcella's poisoning: the boat had time to get quite far before the poison had an effect. Ellaria transfered the poison by taking some herself and then kissing Myrcella. Tyene then gave her mother the antidote and we understood all that without dialogue. I don't know why the poison acted faster on Ellaria than on Myrcella, but it is easy enough to guess this must be because she was exposed to quite a bit more of it, and had obviously taken it sooner than Myrcella before she arrived at the pier.
We also learned that Tyene in the show is a composite character, who is part book Tyene, and part book Elia. In the books, while there are certainly hints that Tyene has quite frequent sexual adventures, it is Elia who has been outright portrayed in precisely the same way as show Tyene as a horny teenage shameless flirt. It is also Elia who is Ellaria's eldest daughter. I don't know precisely how this characterization will end up mattering, books or show, but chances are good that it will.
Finally, there is the interaction between the Sand Snakes. We learn they are competitive with each other, treacherous, even with each other, and we get a few hints of Nym and Obara's character traits as well. It wasn't anywhere near enough to make them well-rounded characters with depth, but we did glimpse some individuality. That too will likely play a role in Dornish developments.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 7:14:03 GMT
Another criticism is Hotah's death by tiny dagger.
Sure, dying so easily is a waste of his fighting skill I agree. But it really is not as improbable as people are making it out to be. Human beings die very very easily if stabbed in precisely the right place, and an expert on daggers such as Tyene would know where the right place is on an unmoving target. Add to that the fact that she is an expert in poisons, and it really isn't hard to imagine she probably made her stab even more deadly with a very fast acting poison.
Doran's death took longer, but then Ellaria was never portrayed as a dagger expert so she might not have pricked Doran in as good a spot.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 7:20:45 GMT
Tyene's bad line:
People in real life use terrible terrible lines all the time. Not everyone is as witty as Tyrion. Maybe instead of thinking of it as terrible writing, think of it as writing for a not very witty and somewhat awkward horny teenage flirt. Try to imaging things YOU said as a teenager on your earliest dates and feel your face turn red.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 9:11:03 GMT
Ellaria's character assassination:
In the books, Ellaria makes a pacifist speech about the endless cycle of revenge. Because of this speech, the show has been accused of completely, irreparably altering her character.
This is pure speculation but I wonder if that is true. In the season 6 premiere we saw her in a similar way making very nice with Doran, helping him walk, flattering him a bit, etc. This after making a vow of fealty, obedience etc. in season 5. Clearly in the show her actions were about regaining his trust so that she could get close enough to him to kill him. Is it really so far-fetched to think she might be doing the same thing in the books? In the books she doesn't know his plan so she thinks he is doing nothing to avenge Elia. Based on that, she must think he doesn't believe in revenge. Her speech seems well targeted if the goal is to gain his trust. Her books speech might be sincere, or it might not be. We simply don't know yet. And if not, then she is in place at Sunspear to kill him and/or maybe Trystane when Dornish blood is boiling hot enough.
Of course I think the book progression will be very different from the show progression, in large part because of Aegon. But IMO the result will be pretty much the same: Doran and all of his heirs will die and Dorne will be at war against the Lannisters, possibly allied with other Lannister enemies.
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Post by breakfest on Apr 29, 2016 9:16:04 GMT
Tyene's bad line: People in real life use terrible terrible lines all the time. Not everyone is as witty as Tyrion. Maybe instead of thinking of it as terrible writing, think of it as writing for a not very witty and somewhat awkward horny teenage flirt. Try to imaging things YOU said as a teenager on your earliest dates and feel your face turn red. Yeah the last date I had got scared off when I asked her if she wanted any of my 'bad, bad D'. I was left wondering just what went wrong. Unfortunately for her she didn't know what she was missing out on. Boy must HER face be red right now.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 9:23:47 GMT
Tyene's bad line: People in real life use terrible terrible lines all the time. Not everyone is as witty as Tyrion. Maybe instead of thinking of it as terrible writing, think of it as writing for a not very witty and somewhat awkward horny teenage flirt. Try to imaging things YOU said as a teenager on your earliest dates and feel your face turn red. Yeah the last date I had got scared off when I asked her if she wanted any of my 'bad, bad D'. I was left wondering just what went wrong. Unfortunately for her she didn't know what she was missing out on. Boy must HER face be red right now. Are you a teenager? A Tinder user? Both?
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Post by breakfest on Apr 29, 2016 9:32:01 GMT
Neither. I'm a professional serpent-handler but as of yet noone has been receptive to my deadly snake.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 9:36:35 GMT
Well being a teenager can be a mental state rather than a particular age after all.
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Post by breakfest on Apr 29, 2016 9:47:07 GMT
For sure. Serious response time: a bad line is a bad line. Not purely for the line itself but for the context in which it is said, the delivery, lots of circumstantial things. You can make a line sound awkward or cringe-inducing to good effect but a lot of that depends on the context and the way that line makes us respond to the events around it.
This was a pretty cringe-inducing line but the biggest fault was the context. We know this girl to be pretty effective at using her sexuality to manipulate, or to hold power over men, as she did with Bronn already. With him leaving Dorne a line like that was set up to be sexy and tempting, a display of her hold over him. Instead it was strange and awkwardly-delivered. It didn't live up to the setup. And to be honest, the setup was kind of out of place within the scene as a whole - tonally it was jarring.
I don't think I want to analyse an already over-referenced phrase like that any more but I'll just say that I'm not sure you'll change people's minds on Dorne now that it's been a year since it was introduced, but I applaud the effort.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 10:03:51 GMT
For sure. Serious response time: a bad line is a bad line. Not purely for the line itself but for the context in which it is said, the delivery, lots of circumstantial things. You can make a line sound awkward or cringe-inducing to good effect but a lot of that depends on the context and the way that line makes us respond to the events around it. This was a pretty cringe-inducing line but the biggest fault was the context. We know this girl to be pretty effective at using her sexuality to manipulate, or to hold power over men, as she did with Bronn already. With him leaving Dorne a line like that was set up to be sexy and tempting, a display of her hold over him. Instead it was strange and awkwardly-delivered. It didn't live up to the setup. And to be honest, the setup was kind of out of place within the scene as a whole - tonally it was jarring. I don't think I want to analyse an already over-referenced phrase like that any more but I'll just say that I'm not sure you'll change people's minds on Dorne now that it's been a year since it was introduced, but I applaud the effort. There are plenty of threads for nitpicking though. This thread has a different purpose and it was clearly stated. If you want to continue hating Dorne feel free, but do it elsewhere please. Did you even read the OP?
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Post by breakfest on Apr 29, 2016 10:10:42 GMT
For sure. Serious response time: a bad line is a bad line. Not purely for the line itself but for the context in which it is said, the delivery, lots of circumstantial things. You can make a line sound awkward or cringe-inducing to good effect but a lot of that depends on the context and the way that line makes us respond to the events around it. This was a pretty cringe-inducing line but the biggest fault was the context. We know this girl to be pretty effective at using her sexuality to manipulate, or to hold power over men, as she did with Bronn already. With him leaving Dorne a line like that was set up to be sexy and tempting, a display of her hold over him. Instead it was strange and awkwardly-delivered. It didn't live up to the setup. And to be honest, the setup was kind of out of place within the scene as a whole - tonally it was jarring. I don't think I want to analyse an already over-referenced phrase like that any more but I'll just say that I'm not sure you'll change people's minds on Dorne now that it's been a year since it was introduced, but I applaud the effort. There are plenty of threads for nitpicking though. This thread has a different purpose and it was clearly stated. If you want to continue hating Dorne feel free, but do it elsewhere please. Did you even read the OP? Fair enough, I thought it was open to rebuttal but you're right, we do have plenty of places to lay out criticism. I've not actually taken part in any of those and I'm one of the few who doesn't hate it but I can see how I may have come across that way. That line is a particularly difficult thing to defend so fair play.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 10:20:36 GMT
There are plenty of threads for nitpicking though. This thread has a different purpose and it was clearly stated. If you want to continue hating Dorne feel free, but do it elsewhere please. Did you even read the OP? Fair enough, I thought it was open to rebuttal but you're right, we do have plenty of places to lay out criticism. I've not actually taken part in any of those and I'm one of the few who doesn't hate it but I can see how I may have come across that way. That line is a particularly difficult thing to defend so fair play. Well people are certainly welcome to contribute to the thread, but the purpose isn't so much to debate merits of scenes, but to try to shine a more flattering light on some of them to make it easier to enjoy the rest of the show.
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Post by Mecha-StannisForever on Apr 29, 2016 12:52:05 GMT
Another criticism is Hotah's death by tiny dagger. Sure, dying so easily is a waste of his fighting skill I agree. But it really is not as improbable as people are making it out to be. Human beings die very very easily if stabbed in precisely the right place, and an expert on daggers such as Tyene would know where the right place is on an unmoving target. Add to that the fact that she is an expert in poisons, and it really isn't hard to imagine she probably made her stab even more deadly with a very fast acting poison.
Doran's death took longer, but then Ellaria was never portrayed as a dagger expert so she might not have pricked Doran in as good a spot. Oberyn is also an expert on poison, and Gregor Clegane didn't even die from it, thanks to Qyburn, but still. Posion can't kill you that quickly is my point. From look of the scene, she stabbed him the back on the right side. The only Organ that would really cause such a massive failure so fast in that area of the body is the heart, which is more to the left. Maybe she hit his spine, yes, but they could have done a far better job of showing that, and besides, it certainly didn't look like that. Area Hotah is a big guy, for a single dagger strike, poisoned or not to take him out is far too convenient, regardless of poison, or how skilled Tyene is. From what we see, she hit nothing major, she just stabbed him in the back. Maybe, maybe, she stabbed his spine, but it just didn't come across that way on screen.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 13:05:08 GMT
Another criticism is Hotah's death by tiny dagger. Sure, dying so easily is a waste of his fighting skill I agree. But it really is not as improbable as people are making it out to be. Human beings die very very easily if stabbed in precisely the right place, and an expert on daggers such as Tyene would know where the right place is on an unmoving target. Add to that the fact that she is an expert in poisons, and it really isn't hard to imagine she probably made her stab even more deadly with a very fast acting poison.
Doran's death took longer, but then Ellaria was never portrayed as a dagger expert so she might not have pricked Doran in as good a spot. Oberyn is also an expert on poison, and Gregor Clegane didn't even die from it, thanks to Qyburn, but still. Posion can't kill you that quickly is my point. From look of the scene, she stabbed him the back on the right side. The only Organ that would really cause such a massive failure so fast in that area of the body is the heart, which is more to the left. Maybe she hit his spine, yes, but they could have done a far better job of showing that, and besides, it certainly didn't look like that. Area Hotah is a big guy, for a single dagger strike, poisoned or not to take him out is far too convenient, regardless of poison, or how skilled Tyene is. From what we see, she hit nothing major, she just stabbed him in the back. Maybe, maybe, she stabbed his spine, but it just didn't come across that way on screen. Oberyn used a slow acting poison on purpose. We know that. He deliberately chose to use something that would cause the slowest, most painful death possible. So the two things don't really compare, like at all. And this is a completely fictional world where dragons exist, so is it really such a stretch to believe fast poisons also exist? Try to stick with the spirit of the thread, which is specifically NOT about debating the merits of the scenes but about trying to see them differently in order to be able to enjoy the show more.
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Post by Mecha-StannisForever on Apr 29, 2016 13:10:19 GMT
Ah, my bad. It's hard to see the points and not try to debate them. My apologies
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 13:11:45 GMT
Ah, my bad. It's hard to see the points and not try to debate them. My apologies No worries. People have strong feelings about Dorne so it is pretty instinctive. Still, it does get to the point where it interferes with enjoyment. You can debate the points here if you have OTHER positive angles for seeing these scenes!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 1:32:01 GMT
Try to stick with the spirit of the thread, which is specifically NOT about debating the merits of the scenes but about trying to see them differently in order to be able to enjoy the show more. Two people have tried to debate with you, and twice you've shot them down and told them they are not responding the way you want which is to say you only want people to reply to this thread if they agree with you. That's not how debating here works. No one else is going to reply because why say " I agree with your monologue!" ... it's just an echo chamber. I get what you're saying, there are already criticism posts and we've all lamented about the sandsnakes enough, so why not see the positive side to it. The problem is, if you don't allow anyone to discuss their disagreements to your essays, there's no way to see any different perspective. You're demanding only complete agreement.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 4:55:59 GMT
Try to stick with the spirit of the thread, which is specifically NOT about debating the merits of the scenes but about trying to see them differently in order to be able to enjoy the show more. Two people have tried to debate with you, and twice you've shot them down and told them they are not responding the way you want which is to say you only want people to reply to this thread if they agree with you. That's not how debating here works. No one else is going to reply because why say " I agree with your monologue!" ... it's just an echo chamber. I get what you're saying, there are already criticism posts and we've all lamented about the sandsnakes enough, so why not see the positive side to it. The problem is, if you don't allow anyone to discuss their disagreements to your essays, there's no way to see any different perspective. You're demanding only complete agreement. Look, I want discussion. And I am fine with people continuing to critique Dorne like they do on every single other thread. What I was trying to do with THIS thread was different. It simply will not work if people respond to my "more positive light" posts by casting negative light. There are THOUSANDS of places to look at the negatives od Dorne's execution. I wanted ONE place where we could try to reframe things to make it easier to enjoy the show. That doesn't mean what is said here is the final word it simply means this thread has a different goal, and that goal was clearly stated in the OP. Some of the reframings I have provided above are clearly intended to be a bit cheeky. Yet people came on here and debated them (or mocked them) as if they are serious matters for debate. They are not. They are simply a matter of taking Mel's necklace and putting it on Dorne! So why the need to debate it? Maybe instead, make a better necklace here!
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Apr 30, 2016 6:27:39 GMT
um, if you only want replies from people equally willing to give dorne a chance then you wouldn't have any replies. the rest of us enjoy the show just fine while making fun of dorne.
perhaps we can direct you to a board run by a former member here if you're so desperate for another dorne fan.
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