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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 15:44:46 GMT
I'm not a fan of the Euron rides a dragon theories, but that's because he has no ties to the other two and the three heads of the dragon which I DO think is a thing... it's as much a prophecy that likely is part of GRRM's overall theme as Azor Ahai and all that. I think whoever rides the other two, regardless of whether they're Targaryen or not, need to have some ties to the others in some way. Tyrion as 'mediator' between Dany and Jon makes the most sense to me at this point. He's been to the wall and seen it, he knows and respects Jon and Jon respects him. This will work out. Euron riding a dragon wouldn't be because the dragon likes him (as it is with Dany), but because the dragon is his slave. That's why I don't like it! It could very well be possible but how would that even work with the other two if they're enemies? Dany isn't going to be ok with one of her children being a slave to Euron. I can't see that jiving and unless Euron changes his tune real quick, there's no way the other two would allow it would they? I suppose there could be a second "Dance of the Dragons" somewhere but I hope not, with only three left in the world the last thing we need is war between them! GRRM has also said that you don't need Valyrian blood to be able to ride a dragon. We have three dragons. Dany rides Drogon. That leaves two other dragons. I guess Tyrion will ride Viserion, and Euron will take Rhaegal. Sorry for chimming in, but that's not what he said. The exact wording of SSM I believe you have in mind is this: This third Targaryen might very well be -not- a Targaryen, to quote his exact words... "Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not nessesarily BE a Targaryen..." www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1261/Now, the question is, what makes "a Targaryen"? Is it the blood, or is it also the name? Much has been made of that Snow is not a Stark, Blackfyre is not a Targaryen, etc. There is also the fact we don't know the question which led to this answer. We can't even say for sure if the second head HAS to be "a Targaryen" as well. ETA: It may very well be that Tyrion is Aerys' bastard, but Dany will legitimaze him as his mother's son and grant him Casterly Rock, which would formally make him a Lannister, albeit a dragon-riding one. I appreciate you chiming in on such a long winded post, welcome to our group! I definitely don't think it has to be Targaryen blood that rides a dragon and Tyrion could very well connect with the dragons and still be a Lannister. That would be cool too in my book! I'm really open to different views on this theory as obviously I confessed to having a change of heart about it myself after years of denying the possibility. I'd love to see whoever rules make Tyrion the legit heir to Casterly Rock and help rule the kingdoms from there when the time comes. It has long been my thought that a 'single ruler' on the iron throne is now a thing of the past and that the "7 Kingdoms" is going to be a coalition of nations so-to-speak that works collectively to keep each other in check and to ally against the bigger threat (and to keep the contract with them in the future).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 15:54:04 GMT
Euron riding a dragon wouldn't be because the dragon likes him (as it is with Dany), but because the dragon is his slave. That's why I don't like it! It could very well be possible but how would that even work with the other two if they're enemies? Dany isn't going to be ok with one of her children being a slave to Euron. I can't see that jiving and unless Euron changes his tune real quick, there's no way the other two would allow it would they? I suppose there could be a second "Dance of the Dragons" somewhere but I hope not, with only three left in the world the last thing we need is war between them! Second Dance of the Dragons is confirmed by GRRM. The show will probably minimize it to only one battle (Euron vs Dany), but it'll certainly be there. Personally I always thought that Rhaegal and Viserion would die fighting each other. Euron enslaves one of them, and that dragon dies in DoD 2.0. The other two will die fighting the White Walkers. If ice dragons aren't real, I'm hoping for a wightified Drogon.
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Post by day dreamer on Apr 17, 2016 15:56:10 GMT
I think if Tywin really thought Tyrion wasn't his, he'd have tossed him in the sea and said so. No one would've fought him on it. He didn't do that because deep down he knows Tyrion is his son. I think Tyrion being a secret Targ undermines his entire KL story because a big part of that is Tyrion actually acting like a proper Lannister, moreso than his "normal" siblings. I'd be disappointed if he was anything but a Lannister. (Same goes for Jaime and Cersei because I hate all secret Targ theories lol)
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Shaena
Sweet Summer Child
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Post by Shaena on Apr 17, 2016 16:09:09 GMT
Euron riding a dragon wouldn't be because the dragon likes him (as it is with Dany), but because the dragon is his slave. That's why I don't like it! It could very well be possible but how would that even work with the other two if they're enemies? Dany isn't going to be ok with one of her children being a slave to Euron. I can't see that jiving and unless Euron changes his tune real quick, there's no way the other two would allow it would they? I suppose there could be a second "Dance of the Dragons" somewhere but I hope not, with only three left in the world the last thing we need is war between them! Sorry for chimming in, but that's not what he said. The exact wording of SSM I believe you have in mind is this: This third Targaryen might very well be -not- a Targaryen, to quote his exact words... "Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not nessesarily BE a Targaryen..." www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1261/Now, the question is, what makes "a Targaryen"? Is it the blood, or is it also the name? Much has been made of that Snow is not a Stark, Blackfyre is not a Targaryen, etc. There is also the fact we don't know the question which led to this answer. We can't even say for sure if the second head HAS to be "a Targaryen" as well. ETA: It may very well be that Tyrion is Aerys' bastard, but Dany will legitimaze him as his mother's son and grant him Casterly Rock, which would formally make him a Lannister, albeit a dragon-riding one. I appreciate you chiming in on such a long winded post, welcome to our group! I definitely don't think it has to be Targaryen blood that rides a dragon and Tyrion could very well connect with the dragons and still be a Lannister. That would be cool too in my book! I'm really open to different views on this theory as obviously I confessed to having a change of heart about it myself after years of denying the possibility. I'd love to see whoever rules make Tyrion the legit heir to Casterly Rock and help rule the kingdoms from there when the time comes. It has long been my thought that a 'single ruler' on the iron throne is now a thing of the past and that the "7 Kingdoms" is going to be a coalition of nations so-to-speak that works collectively to keep each other in check and to ally against the bigger threat (and to keep the contract with them in the future). Thanks for a welcome! My personal opinion is that you have to have at least some dragonlord blood to ride a dragon (at least in the books, because the show can easily skip or simplify things), because otherwise GRRM needn't have to bother with the dragonseed stuff in TWoIaF. I mean, it's a nice idea that dragonriding a meritocratic thing, but it's likely not, just like warging isn't something what just anybody can learn if they try hard enough. Either you have the gift, or you have not. That aside, I think that Euron may be an exception due some freaky magic he has learned from warlocks... but I don't think that his relationship with the dragon would be anything like the classic dragon-rider bond, and sooner or later the dragon would come to bite him in the ass, so to speak.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 16:20:49 GMT
I think if Tywin really thought Tyrion wasn't his, he'd have tossed him in the sea and said so. No one would've fought him on it. He didn't do that because deep down he knows Tyrion is his son. I think Tyrion being a secret Targ undermines his entire KL story because a big part of that is Tyrion actually acting like a proper Lannister, moreso than his "normal" siblings. I'd be disappointed if he was anything but a Lannister. (Same goes for Jaime and Cersei because I hate all secret Targ theories lol) Yeah that's one of the most compelling of the arguments against the theory as @witchy posted earlier and it's a valid point! Part of the whole struggle for Tyrion has been about his identity and desire to be accepted as a true Lannister. I'm not convinced Tywin would have drowned him as a baby even knowing for certain, but that's the key point, he doesn't know for certain and therefore thought the Gods were testing him as he stated in that speech I quoted from the show. To teach him humility.
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Shaena
Sweet Summer Child
always off topic sorry so sorry
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Post by Shaena on Apr 17, 2016 16:28:42 GMT
I think if Tywin really thought Tyrion wasn't his, he'd have tossed him in the sea and said so. No one would've fought him on it. He didn't do that because deep down he knows Tyrion is his son. I think Tyrion being a secret Targ undermines his entire KL story because a big part of that is Tyrion actually acting like a proper Lannister, moreso than his "normal" siblings. I'd be disappointed if he was anything but a Lannister. (Same goes for Jaime and Cersei because I hate all secret Targ theories lol) Well, Tywin didn't have to straight out know, he could have *suspected* it. In that case I think he would have still been loathe to kill Tyrion. He simply woudn't know whether he would kill his and Joanna's child and commit kinslaying or not. This uncertainty whether Tyrion was truly his or Aerys' get would be terrible for him, imo. I don't think that Tyrion being the most Lannister-like matters. Once upon time I went to lurk to the old EZBoard (the predecessor of westeros.org) and found some ancient R+L=J threads from the times when the ultimate secret Targaryen theory hasn't been nearly as universally accepted as it is today. Guess what was one of the most frequent arguments against it? "Buuuuut.... Jon is way too much like Ned! It doesn't make sense for him to be a Targaryen!" Which is partly true; Jon is in many ways like Ned and tries to emulate him all the time, but it doesn't change that his biological father is most likely a Valyrian looking, harp-playing tourney champion Rhaegar Targaryen.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 16:57:20 GMT
I read some old links people posted on reddit from the 'early days' of R+L=J and agree. Having been among those first to openly support the theory on westeros.org I can definitely agree there were so many denial arguments that 'made sense' at the time. But like many, I stuck to my gut feeling on it. I can't say I have a 'gut feeling' about Tyrion since obviously I didn't support the theory all this time, but I'm willing to be open minded about it and support it as highly likely. Jon -is- very Ned like but that's a "Stark" trait overall, not just Ned. And since Lyanna was supposedly very "Stark-like" in her stubborn and willful ways, it fits!
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Shaena
Sweet Summer Child
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Post by Shaena on Apr 18, 2016 11:02:29 GMT
I have myself considered A+J=T to be crap pretty much until the publication of ADwD, when Barristan's mention of Aerys' lust for Joanna gave me a pause. I still didn't buy it, but I recognized there is a vague possibility there could have been an affair or a rape which resulted in Tyrion or Cersei and Jaime. Then TWoIaF came around, and it disqualified Cersei and Jaime, but fed the flames in the case of Tyrion, and I was like "why would GRRM do this if he doesn't want us to consider the possibility that Tyrion is Aerys'child." Back then I gave the theory 50/50 likelihood, but thinking about for months now, it moved up to some 75/25. I guess I didn't like it at first at all, but I got used to the idea and realized what it could bring to the story.
I think there is a good possibility I'm wrong, but I think that proclamations of "wishful thinking!" and "crackpot!" are undeserved gut reactions of people who don't even want to try to see Tyrion and his future in a different light.
As for Jon, I really think he's much closer in personality to Ned than Lyanna. Ned was the "quiet wolf", while Lyanna was the wild wolf maiden (*cough* KotLT *cough*). Lyanna is supposed to be much more like Arya, extraverted, playful and a bit belligerent, while Ned and Jon are both introverted, solemn and cold and blow up only rarely (even Jon attacking Alliser Thorne is very similar to Ned attacking Littlefinger).
I've seen arguments that Jon is really like Rhaegar, but I've never found it quite convincing, because aside of general melancholy the two have precious little in common. Like, Jon has never shown any interest in music or books (his reaction to finding Sam reading accounts in the library is pretty much "wtf why would you want to do this"), which seem to be Rhaegar's defining characteristics - he's an artistic spirit and an intellectual, and he only showed any interest in the military stuff because of a prophecy. Jon's area of interest is completely somewhere else - he's into swordfighting, raiding, strategy, and he's a big fan of Daeron the Young Dragon.
ETA: Therefore when someone says that Tyrion can't be Aerys' son, because he's too much like Tywin, I don't think it means much. Basically, it's the nature vs. nurture argument. One could argue that due to their outsider status in the family both Jon and Tyrion tried to "be good" and fit in by emulating the head of the family (i.e., Ned and Tywin, respectively) so fervently they ended up resembling them more than the men's own biological children.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2016 12:35:44 GMT
ETA: Therefore when someone says that Tyrion can't be Aerys' son, because he's too much like Tywin, I don't think it means much. Basically, it's the nature vs. nurture argument. One could argue that due to their outsider status in the family both Jon and Tyrion tried to "be good" and fit in by emulating the head of the family (i.e., Ned and Tywin, respectively) so fervently they ended up resembling them more than the men's own biological children. Excellent points all through, but that one stuck out at me as important to remember. I don't put a lot of weight on the genetics in the stories even though I do think GRRM is very good at portraying the various houses and their characteristics. It's true that their upbringing and environment (ie. growing up in the North vs. King's Landing or Dorne) make for much different people across Westeros so family heritage is only one part of it. Theon is different from most of the Ironborn and shunned for it as having been raised too 'soft' even though I'd argue being raised in the harsh north is nothing to soften a boy even in a noble house. Arguing that Tyrion is most like Tywin isn't really a strong one since as you said, nurture could have as much to do with that. Targaryens were also strong political leaders as rulers for so long - sometimes good ones, sometimes terrible ones. Aerys carried the insanity gene (which I do believe is inherited for Targs) but that doesn't mean all of his children will have it as Daenerys had private fears of from time to time. So far the most reasonable argument against Tyrion ending up being the son of Aerys is that it throws off his story in relation to Tywin. But in a way, the irony there would be that if true, Tyrion spent most of his life despised by a man who wasn't his Father and the profound impact that had on him leading to murdering Tywin. The impact is different but is it really lessened because Tyrion is or isn't Tywin's son? Only that he either is or isn't a kinslayer. Either way he's still a murderer and carries that guilt even if justified for how horribly his Father treated him.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2016 12:39:57 GMT
I read some old links people posted on reddit from the 'early days' of R+L=J and agree. Having been among those first to openly support the theory on westeros.org I can definitely agree there were so many denial arguments that 'made sense' at the time. But like many, I stuck to my gut feeling on it. I can't say I have a 'gut feeling' about Tyrion since obviously I didn't support the theory all this time, but I'm willing to be open minded about it and support it as highly likely. Jon -is- very Ned like but that's a "Stark" trait overall, not just Ned. And since Lyanna was supposedly very "Stark-like" in her stubborn and willful ways, it fits! All of my predictions are coming true! Faegon doesn't factor in the end game. Stannis doesn't factor in the end game (sorry, guys.) Sandor is coming back as the gravedigger to put an end to his abomination of a brother. Jon and Tyrion are both Targs. Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. I feel like I should get a medal. What do I have to do if I turn out to be wrong about Tyrion? I'm not eating a crow.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2016 12:43:26 GMT
I read some old links people posted on reddit from the 'early days' of R+L=J and agree. Having been among those first to openly support the theory on westeros.org I can definitely agree there were so many denial arguments that 'made sense' at the time. But like many, I stuck to my gut feeling on it. I can't say I have a 'gut feeling' about Tyrion since obviously I didn't support the theory all this time, but I'm willing to be open minded about it and support it as highly likely. Jon -is- very Ned like but that's a "Stark" trait overall, not just Ned. And since Lyanna was supposedly very "Stark-like" in her stubborn and willful ways, it fits! All of my predictions are coming true! Faegon doesn't factor in the end game. Stannis doesn't factor in the end game (sorry, guys.) Sandor is coming back as the gravedigger to put an end to his abomination of a brother. Jon and Tyrion are both Targs. Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. I feel like I should get a medal. What do I have to do if I turn out to be wrong about Tyrion? I'm not eating a crow. Now, this all depends on what you call "endgame". I definitely think that fAegon has a large part to play in the books, but the show doesn't have time for him, and some of his actions will be taken by Euron.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2016 12:49:29 GMT
All of my predictions are coming true! Faegon doesn't factor in the end game. Stannis doesn't factor in the end game (sorry, guys.) Sandor is coming back as the gravedigger to put an end to his abomination of a brother. Jon and Tyrion are both Targs. Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. I feel like I should get a medal. What do I have to do if I turn out to be wrong about Tyrion? I'm not eating a crow. Now, this all depends on what you call "endgame". I definitely think that fAegon has a large part to play in the books, but the show doesn't have time for him, and some of his actions will be taken by Euron. Yeah, I mean that he won't be a real contender for the throne or part of winning or losing the war against the Others. I think he'll be killed off before that time in the books, which is why D&D chose not to include his story line in the show. You're right, though, that in the books he already factors in establishing sides in a war.
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