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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 4:16:25 GMT
So, this thread is inevitable, ammirite? The question is being brought up in various threads, mostly S6 threads. Meanwhile, the show is dropping hints and foreshadows, seemingly heavier with each episode. We don't expect The Reveal will be in S5, but we don't know that it will happen in S6 either. It is The Reveal, after all, in both the books and the show.
How sure are you that R+L=J is true? Why? It is the accepted theory, after all. And if you're not sure, why not? I'll quote here the one niggling doubt I have (originally posted in the S6 Jon's Parentage thread).
Could Jon's mom just be Willa, after all? Could she be Ashara Dayne? Ned visited her after the ToJ, and then she allegedly leaped to her death off of a tower. Grief over the death of her brother at the hand of the man she loved, whose child she bore? Or, grief that honorable Ned told her he had to marry Catelyn Tully?
Your input?
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on May 24, 2015 6:25:35 GMT
No, it's obviously not Wylla or Ashara.
If I were in GRRM's inner circle and found out the internet had already solved Jon's origins, I'd probably try to throw them off the scent too, lol. Idt Paris's words there mean much when weighed against Martin saying recently that fans have solved part of his ending and D&D getting it right on the first try, they didn't uncover anything new that you original nerds missed in all those years before the show.
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Post by kingeomer on May 24, 2015 13:03:43 GMT
I'd say I am about 95% confident R+L=J is the truth. My biggest evidence is Ned's POV in book 1. The only lie he told. Ned promise me. Why he could not take Jon to Kings Landing with him. Catelyn reflecting on the time Ned's anger scared her when she asked him if Ashara Dayne was Jon's mother and he silenced the gossipers in Winterfell after that. Ned never telling Catelyn the truth about Jon's mother. The secret was so big that he could not tell his wife...who might have treated Jon better if she knew the truth about him...because he thought the truth getting out was that dangerous.
But there is a small part of me that also says...what if Jon's mother is Ashara or his real father is Robert Baratheon? Highly doubtful but the 5% of me still entertains the idea.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 14:59:51 GMT
I wonder if maybe George was home complaining that those damn fans had figured out his big secret that he wasn't planning to reveal for five more books, because all those people do is read his books and argue about them on a board, and painstakingly discuss minor details that a reader alone wouldn't be so sure about, and damn it, now what? They won't be surprised! So she tried to sew some doubt for her man.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 23:19:17 GMT
I wonder if maybe George was home complaining that those damn fans had figured out his big secret that he wasn't planning to reveal for five more books, because all those people do is read his books and argue about them on a board, and painstakingly discuss minor details that a reader alone wouldn't be so sure about, and damn it, now what? They won't be surprised! So she tried to sew some doubt for her man. That's actually my take on what Paris posted, too. But I must say, I was fascinated to find that she'd ever posted on a fan board in the first place. That's just so cool that 'you were there', iheartseverus! But I'd say I'm about 99.999% sure. (Did I mention I have moments of gross overconfidence?) But, Ned's dream before regaining consciousness, also his assertion that Rhaegar was actually a good guy and basically wouldn't have whored around like Robert B. did, or something Lyanna had said to that effect. And Meera's story about the Knight of the Laughing Tree. And R presenting L with the blue rose. And the circumstances around the KG at the Tower of Joy. And what else could, "Ned, promise me" be? And how else would Lyanna have died? And, and, and.....granted, I figured none of this out on my own, but it just seems to ring true, that it does. |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2015 2:05:04 GMT
It would be neat to read that original thread if it still existed though it's probably long gone over time over there? For me, the final "I knew it!" was when it was revealed that D&D guessed the correct answer of Jon's parentage. Let's think here for a minute. They are pretty good writers but they are not as good as GRRM himself and they started out as just regular fans like you and I. I don't consider them more clever than any smart book fan who also happens to have the resources and ability to write professionally - so it seems to me they guessed the right answer because just like us and many others over the years have speculated, it's more than a simple dalliance with a maid or other lady that led to Jon's birth and it wasn't Ned Stark who Fathered him. I would not be surprised at all if D&D were themselves fans and contributors on forums like westeros.org to be honest. If Mrs. Martin-to-be was there, just imagine who else lurked! They, like us, read the theories and either dismissed it, argued it, or sat up and took note. They won the prize and we know the answer.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2015 2:21:51 GMT
I'm too proud of the fact that I guessed it very, very early on my first read of AGOT. I was so shocked when it hit me (it was Ned's dream), that I immediately went back to earlier chapters to see if Ned ever called Jon his son. As you probably know, he didn't. Not once. The benefit of seeing it then is that I caught every clue along the way after that. It was like a thrilling little puzzle. The first three books were written already, so I read them quickly and then felt this great sense of loss that I couldn't finish, because the next book was not yet written, and that's how I first found forums. There I discovered that everyone already knew my theory and that some people were already violently opposed to it. Then a lot of unrelated, dumb sexist crap happened, so I left. R+L=J hints in the show are what brought me back to viewing forums. It's such a great story and such a great aha moment in the books, whether it happens for you early or later. Or even if you hear about it from someone else, as a friend of mine did, because my mouth, it is big sometimes.
Some people argue that it's too obvious, but I think that only seems true because of the way the story has been disseminated and picked over via the internets. Should writers write with the assumption that thousands of people will pour over their words and then casually spoil plot twists for people? No. It's just a downside of your story being hugely successful.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2015 2:30:39 GMT
I didn't get it the first time through, I'm not afraid to admit that. I *did* have a strange feeling about it - all the secrecy and tension surrounding it with Ned and Catelyn made me suspect but I had absolutely no idea who it could possibly be if not the vague Wylla reference. It took awhile for the pieces to connect but once I was reading westeros.org it all started to click. The strange feeling I had about it became confirmed by many others and when the evidence was presented (as well as counter-arguments against it) - that's all it took for me.
It's been so many long years this was bound to happen by the time the books became a show. I give GRRM kudos for still keeping a straight face about it all this time.
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Post by Nezzer on May 27, 2015 3:08:21 GMT
Am I the only one who hopes Jon's parentage turns out to be irrelevant? I want his role to be in the North fighting the Others, not to find out he's a lost prince and reclaim his rightful throne.
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