Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 22:47:50 GMT
Show Stannis isn't the same character and he hasn't been basically from the beginning. And the "GRRM can do no wrong because it's his story" attitude is what rubs me the wrong way. If people then say that GRRM is wrong too then fine. But they won't. They'll write 3000 page essays about how burning Shireen was perfectly set-up and executed from a writing stand-point, and that the show handled it poorly. Well, I'm not saying that George is perfect or that he always makes the right decisions story-wise (someone really should have told him to either introduce Aegon earlier or not at all and really one just needs to look at AFFC/ADWD), I just think that these kinds of horrid plot twists are much easier to take from GRRM because it is his story and not some invention from D&D that destroys that story. At the end of the day, he doesn't have to write his story to please anyone but himself.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 22:48:25 GMT
He could always legitimise a bastard or appoint a successor. It's not like there aren't other options, even if they aren't ideal. But really, he was never going to get near the throne anyway. I think even his die hard fans basically knew that. He's DOOMED, and he's double DOOMED in the show. Would Stannis's successor in the show be Gendry then? Because they haven't really introduced any of Robert's other bastards who are still alive like Mya Stone.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 22:49:19 GMT
He could always legitimise a bastard or appoint a successor. It's not like there aren't other options, even if they aren't ideal. But really, he was never going to get near the throne anyway. I think even his die hard fans basically knew that. He's DOOMED, and he's double DOOMED in the show. Would Stannis's successor in the show be Gendry then? If he's legitimised, yes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 22:50:47 GMT
And I would the say the same of D&D. They don't have anymore of a duty to the fans than GRRM does because their adapting. And again, there is no real difference between GRRM destroying the story and D&D destroying the story. They are both fictional narratives, regardless of whether one is based on the other. It just seems like it puts GRRM beyond a lot of criticism for me.
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valyrianshadow
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Post by valyrianshadow on Jun 7, 2015 22:52:21 GMT
It's not about Shireen burning at this point because it's happening anyway, it's about the reasoning. I think the reasons will be totally different in the book because of the Pink Letter. Stannis will not be there to do anything about it. In the show he watches it with a damned straight face! Should we take D&Ds word on it that if he were there that he'd let it happen? I say no. If they say "When GRRM told us about this scene" it was obviously without Stannis present. That makes all the difference, to me anyway. But opinions are opinions.
I'd like to know how GRRM feels about it but he probably won't talk about it.
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sj4iy
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Post by sj4iy on Jun 7, 2015 22:56:06 GMT
Or maybe the Stan-fans will think GrrM is character-assassinating him too? I dunno. Just because GRRM is the author doesn't mean he can't commit character assassinations as well. My biggest gripe with Stannis burning Shireen is not that he probably won't do it in the books, but because D&D wrote him pretty well this season until this point. They established a very close relationship between him and his daughter, much better than in the books, I'd say, which is why I said before that I found show!Stannis a more sympathetic character than his book counterpart. So the problem is that it's out of character for show!Stannis, who clearly loves his daughter more than book!Stannis, to burn her alive. If GRRM decided to do the same thing the same way in the books if the show didn't exist, it would also be character assassination. It's not character assassination. It's a character arc that has escalated over the past four seasons and culminated in more and more unspeakable acts. The Stannis of season 2 would not have done it- but then again, the Stannis of season 2 did not trust Melisandre the way the Stannis of season 5 does. He has swallowed her snake oil and is now absolutely desperate. Again, it's a wonderful parallel with the story of AA and Nissa Nissa. If you believe that you are the one to save the world (NM if it is true or not), what lengths would you go to in order to do it? If it required a sacrifice of the only person you truly loved to save humanity, could you do it? We may not get the story of Nissa Nissa in the show, but this is a clear parallel. I see no character assassination. I see a man who has been corrupted and led to destroy everything dear to him by the promise of power. As another poster said, it's a Greek tragedy. Also, GRRM is just as guilty of poor writing as D&D at times. But overall, all three do a great job and have built an incredible entertainment empire.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 22:57:20 GMT
It's not about Shireen burning at this point because it's happening anyway, it's about the reasoning. I think the reasons will be totally different in the book because of the Pink Letter. Stannis will not be there to do anything about it. In the show he watches it with a damned straight face! Should we take D&Ds word on it that if he were there that he'd let it happen? I say no. If they say "When GRRM told us about this scene" it was obviously without Stannis present. That makes all the difference, to me anyway. But opinions are opinions. I'd like to know how GRRM feels about it but he probably won't talk about it. He doesn't watch it with a straight face. From the clips and pictures I've seen, Dillane is typically understated in the scene (as is his wont) but he still looks devastated.
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sj4iy
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"Et tu, Brute?"
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Post by sj4iy on Jun 7, 2015 22:59:16 GMT
It's not about Shireen burning at this point because it's happening anyway, it's about the reasoning. I think the reasons will be totally different in the book because of the Pink Letter. Stannis will not be there to do anything about it. In the show he watches it with a damned straight face! Should we take D&Ds word on it that if he were there that he'd let it happen? I say no. If they say "When GRRM told us about this scene" it was obviously without Stannis present. That makes all the difference, to me anyway. But opinions are opinions. I'd like to know how GRRM feels about it but he probably won't talk about it. He doesn't watch it with a straight face. From the clips and pictures I've seen, Dillane is typically understated in the scene (as is his wont) but he still looks devastated. This. He looks like a man who is dying inside, but it desperately trying not to display that on the outside.
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Post by arthucus on Jun 7, 2015 23:04:11 GMT
We should remember that Stannis killed his own brother with a demonic shadow and wanted to burn his nephew. He's not St. Stannis.
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Post by Admin on Jun 7, 2015 23:05:18 GMT
We should remember that Stannis killed his own brother with a demonic shadow and wanted to burn his nephew. He's not St. Stannis. But he used to be St. Daddy
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 23:07:13 GMT
The 509 subforum is less than 100 posts shy of beating 506 and the episode hasn't even aired yet
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 23:08:01 GMT
The 509 subforum is less than 100 posts shy of beating 506 and the episode hasn't even aired yet At least were a little bit more mentally prepared now, but it will still be one of the most heartbreaking scenes of the show.
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sj4iy
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"Et tu, Brute?"
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Post by sj4iy on Jun 7, 2015 23:11:59 GMT
The 509 subforum is less than 100 posts shy of beating 506 and the episode hasn't even aired yet But at least were more mentally prepared now. I don't see how. I mean, we knew they were getting married and we knew what would happen afterwards. This came more of a surprise, honestly. But mostly because it hasn't happened in the books (yet).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 23:12:04 GMT
Any gifs of Dany flying?
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Post by arthucus on Jun 7, 2015 23:12:37 GMT
We should remember that Stannis killed his own brother with a demonic shadow and wanted to burn his nephew. He's not St. Stannis. But he used to be St. Daddy St. Brother St. UncleIt's a progression to ends justifying the means.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 23:12:46 GMT
I don't think so. Only 2 more hours to go anyway, so yay! I'm going to watch live tonight.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 23:14:05 GMT
It just occurred to me the irony of Shireen reading about the Dance of Dragon. It was a war between brother and sister - family vs. family fighting for power. They destroyed themselves in the end and killed the dragons too But for poor Shireen there is no fight.
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Post by Admin on Jun 7, 2015 23:16:49 GMT
I don't think so. Only 2 more hours to go anyway, so yay! I'm going to watch live tonight. Which stream are you using? I pray to God nothing breaks I'm gonna be too wasted to search for new one
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 23:17:27 GMT
Did Meryn off Mace off screen?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2015 23:17:42 GMT
It just occurred to me the irony of Shireen reading about the Dance of Dragon. It was a war between brother and sister - family vs. family fighting for power. They destroyed themselves in the end and killed the dragons too But for poor Shireen there is no fight. I just can't imagine having to listen tonight to that child screaming. Makes me want to flay Stannis and that asshole red witch on the spot.
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