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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on May 30, 2015 11:09:15 GMT
@rooseisazorhai, it was. The show definitely did not use the budget to focus more on his war campaign. We kept being told he was winning battles but we were only seeing before and after those battles. I know it was season 1, but seeing the battle of Whispering Wood where Jaime was captured would have been cool. I will also attribute that to a lot of Robb's battles happening off screen in the books and Catelyn mainly being related information as to what happened. 7timesdamnedshewolf, It would have been nice to have Robb tell Catelyn she was going to be a grandmother, just for a nice little scene between two characters who finally would have had a bit of good news (even though it was all cruelly snatched away in episode 9). I would not have minded more focus on the Robb and Catelyn (no him comforting her after her father died, that could have been a nice scene) relationship but I'd say the show was not too interested after a certain point of developing Robb beyond his relationship with Talisa to build up to the Red Wedding and Catelyn as the grieving widow and mother. And those two were my favorite characters and I thought Michelle and Richard handled the material they did get very well but it could have been better. I do agree, I did not mind the extra naked time for Robb and Talisa, both of them are seriously good looking people. Also Robb rode from Riverrun to Crag from Crag to Harrenhall from Harrenhall to Riverrun to Twins and planned to take Casterly Rock. Like what the fuck? Yes! That was my real problem, Robb looks like an insane person talking about taking Tywin's home while not bothering to re-claim his own. Having them not believe Bran and Rickon were dead was what really ruined the sl. Like, what do they think after learning Winterfell was sacked, that a cripple and a little kid are just living in the wilderness completely on their own, being raised by their direwolves and that's no biggie?! Having the northern heirs be MIA is not really much better than them actually being dead. Cat points out in 3.02 when they get the news that they should have heard from Theon if he'd taken them back to Pyke as hostages, since people don't usually take hostages secretly, and then I guess Robb just puts that question out of his mind. On the 3.05 dvd commentary, Cogsy reveals that Robb's crazy plan to take Casterly Rock was a last-minute D&D insertion, because they thought the audience needed to be tricked into thinking Robb was in for one more great victory over the Lannisters, but why wouldn't the audience be able to get just as pumped about the King Who Lost the North actually taking back the North? It was a 180 contradiction of s2 Robb's reaction to the ironborn invasion and having him being killed in the name of the Lannisters while he was actually planning to fight the ironborn was already a great bait and switch. kingeomer, The really annoying part is that it's implied Catelyn was told about being a grandma offscreen because the li'l Ned Stark exchange ends with a cut to her smiling while watching them kiss.  And there's a still of Talisa trying to console Cat at Hoster's funeral even though that didn't make it into the episode onscreen. |
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Post by kingeomer on May 30, 2015 13:04:22 GMT
7timesdamnedshewolf, you have all great points. I get what Cogman is saying about sending Robb off to Casterly Rock on the show because they set up his main conflict on the show to be against the Lannisters rather than the Ironborn (who the show wanted the audience to believe was being farmed off and taken care of by Bolton's bastard)...but to serve that idea, it didn't make sense that Robb's concern was more about conquering Casterly Rock then taking back his home (which made him look like a weak king after being taken by the Ironborn) and helping the other Northmen getting their homes back. I hate to say in the books...but even GRRM realized it made more sense for Robb to go North and take care of that before finishing off the Lannisters. I think there was great emotional payoff of the idea of Robb going home again, getting his home back and taking care of the man who killed his brothers and then to have it all snatched away at the Red Wedding was tragic. I wish they included the scene of Talisa trying to console Catelyn at Hoster's funeral.
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on May 30, 2015 20:36:36 GMT
kingeomer, Hey, there's nothing shameful in just saying "in the books", is there? I don't think we need to be book purists to question this, even if the series were D&D's original creation, Robb taking Casterly Rock and ignoring the North wouldn't make any more sense. I remember seeing a nonreader on the old TWoP boards asking why Robb didn't just attack Casterly Rock back in s2 when he still had the Karstarks. (Making it seem like he could have just captured Casterly Rock all along and it never occurred to him before he was desperate also doesn't make sense.) As to whatever the show thought it was doing with the trouble up North, if the audience was paying attention they'd notice Theon was being tortured on the Bolton sigil, but officially the show was still presenting Rams as "Boy" until the s3 finale. Even if people hadn't put together who Theon's captor/hornblower was before the Red Wedding, I doubt anyone was picturing a hypothetical unseen Bolton bastard rounding up Yara and all the other ironborn running around the North. And s2 Robb wanted to deal with the ironborn himself and was only talked into sending a delegation from the Dreadfort because they were actually in the North and could get to Winterfell first, and it wasn't yet a pressing enough matter to abandon his momentum in Lannister country, but s3 Robb had no more upper hand against the Lannisters, had a destroyed ancestral castle, and was a king without a kingdom. He should have reverted immediately to his first reaction since he'd spent s2 talking about what kind of king he wanted to be, his responsibility to his people, and how he was fighting to bring his family home. And I do think this was D&D's original plan for s3 since there were things like Robb angrily telling Edmure they could give Harrenhal away because they were fighting for the North, and the guys outside Grey Wind's pen looking forward to going back home right before the Freys killed them and Grey Wind. That little bit during the Red Wedding stands out as some real wtfery once you notice it.
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Post by kingeomer on May 31, 2015 13:07:36 GMT
kingeomer, Hey, there's nothing shameful in just saying "in the books", is there? I don't think we need to be book purists to question this, even if the series were D&D's original creation, Robb taking Casterly Rock and ignoring the North wouldn't make any more sense. I remember seeing a nonreader on the old TWoP boards asking why Robb didn't just attack Casterly Rock back in s2 when he still had the Karstarks. (Making it seem like he could have just captured Casterly Rock all along and it never occurred to him before he was desperate also doesn't make sense.) As to whatever the show thought it was doing with the trouble up North, if the audience was paying attention they'd notice Theon was being tortured on the Bolton sigil, but officially the show was still presenting Rams as "Boy" until the s3 finale. Even if people hadn't put together who Theon's captor/hornblower was before the Red Wedding, I doubt anyone was picturing a hypothetical unseen Bolton bastard rounding up Yara and all the other ironborn running around the North. And s2 Robb wanted to deal with the ironborn himself and was only talked into sending a delegation from the Dreadfort because they were actually in the North and could get to Winterfell first, and it wasn't yet a pressing enough matter to abandon his momentum in Lannister country, but s3 Robb had no more upper hand against the Lannisters, had a destroyed ancestral castle, and was a king without a kingdom. He should have reverted immediately to his first reaction since he'd spent s2 talking about what kind of king he wanted to be, his responsibility to his people, and how he was fighting to bring his family home. And I do think this was D&D's original plan for s3 since there were things like Robb angrily telling Edmure they could give Harrenhal away because they were fighting for the North, and the guys outside Grey Wind's pen looking forward to going back home right before the Freys killed them and Grey Wind. That little bit during the Red Wedding stands out as some real wtfery once you notice it. I bolded what you wrote because this is so spot on. I can understand them wanting the audience to think Robb had one more victory in him versus the Lannisters, but it really did not make sense, especially in light of that evidence you just presented. And if Robb did win Casterly Rock in the show, he would have been in for an unpleasant surprise in that according to the show the Lannister mines are empty and they are broke. I could talk about Robb Stark all day, when you consider how much of the plot had been changed as the show went on, I appreciate the work of Richard Madden even more, because he (and Michelle too) had to overcome some WTF plotting and sound believable. And a picture of Locke was posted here and I really felt like he could have been a compelling villain (even though he was gone in season 4) if they had him sticking around, especially at the Wall (which really could have served Bolton's purpose in trying to get rid of Jon at some point). And Talisa. I know there was a lot of flak for that character but I felt like Oona Chaplin did a good job with what she was given. Since she was a daughter of a Volentine noble, I wish there had been follow up to her demise but it was not even mentioned in Frey's letter to Tywin and I am not hopeful that anyone is going to run into a Volentine noble looking for their daughter, her husband and grandchild after receiving a letter from her and then hearing no more. Using her to tie in the RW to even the lands across the sea really would have been a good point and would have put the Freys, Boltons and Lannisters even in more hot water. |
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