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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Jun 1, 2016 4:10:57 GMT
So you don't think she should feel empathy towards the criminals she kills, but her not feeling empathy for them makes her a psycopath? I'd also know where does the notion that Arya actually enjoys killing comes from. I'd be the first to admit she has become quite desensitized when it comes to killing, but that is quite different from enjoying it. And Arya's story is about more than death. Is about being a misfit in a society that doesn't accept women who don't fit into a certain mold, is about havig low self-esteem, is about the suffering of the smallfolk during the war, how the game of thrones affects those who have no power, feeling small and weak, dealing with the trauma she sees, learning to survive in the middle of a warzone, the loss of family, and since she arrived to THOBAW, retaining her identity while the FM try to wipe it out. Is about her love for her family, about her loyalty and her compassion and how she tries to find a pack everywhere she goes. well, if you ask me why she should feel empathy towards rapists and murderers of course I'm going to say no. Why do they deserve that? They don't, but empathy is the natural human response imo. I'm an emotionless robot irl but I could never kill someone, no matter how justified I felt it was or how legal it happened to be without feeling SOMETHING. So yes, I think if you actively seek out these kills and take it upon yourself to carry them out then you're borderline psychopath or whatever the technically correct word is. are you gonna be expecting sansa to feel empathy for ramsay and littlefinger when they die?
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Post by Enid on Jun 1, 2016 5:13:09 GMT
So you don't think she should feel empathy towards the criminals she kills, but her not feeling empathy for them makes her a psycopath? I'd also know where does the notion that Arya actually enjoys killing comes from. I'd be the first to admit she has become quite desensitized when it comes to killing, but that is quite different from enjoying it. And Arya's story is about more than death. Is about being a misfit in a society that doesn't accept women who don't fit into a certain mold, is about havig low self-esteem, is about the suffering of the smallfolk during the war, how the game of thrones affects those who have no power, feeling small and weak, dealing with the trauma she sees, learning to survive in the middle of a warzone, the loss of family, and since she arrived to THOBAW, retaining her identity while the FM try to wipe it out. Is about her love for her family, about her loyalty and her compassion and how she tries to find a pack everywhere she goes. I completely agree with all you are saying, but Arya on the show definitely enjoys killing. At least that's how Maisie plays it, for example here (at 2:40): Her facial expression is almost like she is getting a kick out of it. But IMO that only enhances her character. It makes her more interesting. Maybe Arya in the show enjoys killing, at least she enjoyed killing that asshole, that I won't deny. But then here we have Sandor, a character that claims killing is the sweetest thing there is or something similar, and yet no one calls him a psycopath Anyway, I agree we should't reduce the thread to this matter. When do you guys think the Waif is going to attack? maybe episode 8 (going by the title No One, but I'm not sure it has been confirmed) but then episode 6 was called Blood of my blood, a quote about Dany, and she only had one scene.
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Jun 1, 2016 6:12:56 GMT
I completely agree with all you are saying, but Arya on the show definitely enjoys killing. At least that's how Maisie plays it, for example here (at 2:40): Her facial expression is almost like she is getting a kick out of it. But IMO that only enhances her character. It makes her more interesting. Maybe Arya in the show enjoys killing, at least she enjoyed killing that asshole, that I won't deny. But then here we have Sandor, a character that claims killing is the sweetest thing there is or something similar, and yet no one calls him a psycopath Anyway, I agree we should't reduce the thread to this matter. When do you guys think the Waif is going to attack? maybe episode 8 (going by the title No One, but I'm it has been confirmed) but then episode 6 was called Blood if my blood, a quote about Dany, and she only had one scene. she's also in the ep summary for 6.07, i think. so i think her departure from braavos is going to be stretched out over two episodes, tho 6.08 will probably have the waif's death and maybe her last scene with jaqen.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 6:31:17 GMT
well, if you ask me why she should feel empathy towards rapists and murderers of course I'm going to say no. Why do they deserve that? They don't, but empathy is the natural human response imo. I'm an emotionless robot irl but I could never kill someone, no matter how justified I felt it was or how legal it happened to be without feeling SOMETHING. So yes, I think if you actively seek out these kills and take it upon yourself to carry them out then you're borderline psychopath or whatever the technically correct word is. are you gonna be expecting sansa to feel empathy for ramsay and littlefinger when they die? she felt it for Joffrey.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 7:23:50 GMT
Yeh i agree with some peeps here. "one way or another a face will be added to the hall" . This is how the servants of the many-faced god work. Only a life pays for a life. Just like Jaquen first says to arya in season 2 "you stole 3 deaths from the red god". They believe the deaths were 'stolen' and thus must be replaced one way or another. I think the same applies to what will happen with the waif and arya. The other girl at the play prayed for the death of Lady Crane. So it is the FM's job to complete the mission. Since Arya failed then that death still has to be repayed. Either the waif or arya will be added to the hall. I'm going to give the waif a break since she is still an acolyte as well, but yeh she totally has a vendetta against arya. But in the end she was correct, a lord's daughter could never be a servant. Jaquen probably knows this as well, but for some reason they've taken a special interest in her.
This is true for the books as well. I always thought it was because of Arya's magical abilities but they haven't touched on this in the slightest on the show. I don't think Jaquen really cares about her, he is supposed to be a true FM who is 'no one' therefore cannot have any care for a girl. Maybe the man keeps a secret though!
Anyway i'm pretty hyped for ep7/8 whenever this comes to pass. All i know is that arya will either escape or kill the waif, but i don't think she'd dare go back to the HoBaW. Too risky. She'll jump on a ship and go forth to westeros.
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Jun 1, 2016 7:31:08 GMT
are you gonna be expecting sansa to feel empathy for ramsay and littlefinger when they die? she felt it for Joffrey. that doesn't answer my question. if she and jon do feed rams to his hounds or to ghost, i'd find it very hard to believe they were feeling empathy for him. i don't think jon felt much for janos slynt either.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 7:40:43 GMT
that doesn't answer my question. if she and jon do feed rams to his hounds or to ghost, i'd find it very hard to believe they were feeling empathy for him. i don't think jon felt much for janos slynt either. Jon might not have felt loads of sympathy for slynt, but he didn't want to kill him and clearly took no joy from doing it. Why did you bring sansa up anyway? Arya is one of my very favourites, and me thinking she's a psychopath doesn't change that.
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Jun 1, 2016 7:53:50 GMT
that doesn't answer my question. if she and jon do feed rams to his hounds or to ghost, i'd find it very hard to believe they were feeling empathy for him. i don't think jon felt much for janos slynt either. Jon might not have felt loads of sympathy for slynt, but he didn't want to kill him and clearly took no joy from doing it. Why did you bring sansa up anyway? Arya is one of my very favourites, and me thinking she's a psychopath doesn't change that. bc some of arya's kills have been closer to ramsay than joffrey and we're all rooting for a gruesome death for ramsay. i don't understand why you would like arya or truly want her to have a happy ending if you truly believed she was a psychopath. it's not really a grey morality term.
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Post by Father of Dragons on Jun 1, 2016 11:05:06 GMT
Yeh i agree with some peeps here. "one way or another a face will be added to the hall" . This is how the servants of the many-faced god work. Only a life pays for a life. Just like Jaquen first says to arya in season 2 "you stole 3 deaths from the red god". They believe the deaths were 'stolen' and thus must be replaced one way or another. I think the same applies to what will happen with the waif and arya. The other girl at the play prayed for the death of Lady Crane. So it is the FM's job to complete the mission. Since Arya failed then that death still has to be repayed. Either the waif or arya will be added to the hall. I'm going to give the waif a break since she is still an acolyte as well, but yeh she totally has a vendetta against arya. But in the end she was correct, a lord's daughter could never be a servant. Jaquen probably knows this as well, but for some reason they've taken a special interest in her. This is true for the books as well. I always thought it was because of Arya's magical abilities but they haven't touched on this in the slightest on the show. I don't think Jaquen really cares about her, he is supposed to be a true FM who is 'no one' therefore cannot have any care for a girl. Maybe the man keeps a secret though! Anyway i'm pretty hyped for ep7/8 whenever this comes to pass. All i know is that arya will either escape or kill the waif, but i don't think she'd dare go back to the HoBaW. Too risky. She'll jump on a ship and go forth to westeros. About the Waif and her obvious vendetta against Arya: Maybe the jealousy/anger the Waif feels for her isn't as important to the Faceless Men because she doesn't let it get in the way of her job? Despite her clear emotions, she's presumably still done everything she was asked to do. Unlike Arya, who has let her emotions and personal feelings of revenge and empathy get in the way of her missions. Twice. In the case of the Waif, it seems somewhat coincidental (or maybe not) that she was assigned to kill someone she clearly hates, but this could well be a test for Arya, to see if she'll "add a face to the hall" one way or another. And as for the special interest Jaqen has for her, he alluded to something last episode: "Shame. A girl has many talents." I'm not entirely sure what those talents are, given that Arya seems to have failed quite a bit since she arrived. Maybe it's the talents that she learned? Or maybe it was just her determination to practically walk through the riverlands then sail across the Narrow Sea to find them, but I don't really think that's it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 11:18:01 GMT
Yeh i agree with some peeps here. "one way or another a face will be added to the hall" . This is how the servants of the many-faced god work. Only a life pays for a life. Just like Jaquen first says to arya in season 2 "you stole 3 deaths from the red god". They believe the deaths were 'stolen' and thus must be replaced one way or another. I think the same applies to what will happen with the waif and arya. The other girl at the play prayed for the death of Lady Crane. So it is the FM's job to complete the mission. Since Arya failed then that death still has to be repayed. Either the waif or arya will be added to the hall. I'm going to give the waif a break since she is still an acolyte as well, but yeh she totally has a vendetta against arya. But in the end she was correct, a lord's daughter could never be a servant. Jaquen probably knows this as well, but for some reason they've taken a special interest in her. This is true for the books as well. I always thought it was because of Arya's magical abilities but they haven't touched on this in the slightest on the show. I don't think Jaquen really cares about her, he is supposed to be a true FM who is 'no one' therefore cannot have any care for a girl. Maybe the man keeps a secret though! Anyway i'm pretty hyped for ep7/8 whenever this comes to pass. All i know is that arya will either escape or kill the waif, but i don't think she'd dare go back to the HoBaW. Too risky. She'll jump on a ship and go forth to westeros. About the Waif and her obvious vendetta against Arya: Maybe the jealousy/anger the Waif feels for her isn't as important to the Faceless Men because she doesn't let it get in the way of her job? Despite her clear emotions, she's presumably still done everything she was asked to do. Unlike Arya, who has let her emotions and personal feelings of revenge and empathy get in the way of her missions. Twice. In the case of the Waif, it seems somewhat coincidental (or maybe not) that she was assigned to kill someone she clearly hates, but this could well be a test for Arya, to see if she'll "add a face to the hall" one way or another. And as for the special interest Jaqen has for her, he alluded to something last episode: "Shame. A girl has many talents." I'm not entirely sure what those talents are, given that Arya seems to have failed quite a bit since she arrived. Maybe it's the talents that she learned? Or maybe it was just her determination to practically walk through the riverlands then sail across the Narrow Sea to find them, but I don't really think that's it. I think the waif is still being tested as well. It could be her undoing having a grudge against arya. And probably will be. Yeh I'm not sure that is it either. He probably just sees potential in her. It could be as simple as that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 12:20:56 GMT
I was really hoping we could move on from the "psychopath" argument, maybe @fireandblood? I think what we're taking exception to is the very negative reaction to the term as in the story we relate that term to truly horrific people and acts such as Ramsay has done. Can we please not label that on Arya? It's not even fair in a fantasy story. I'm sure you know full well how terrible "labels" can be in your own life and how mean people can be with those sorts of blanket statements, surely. I mean nothing but love here, but it's not helping the Arya plot development discussion to keep calling her that regardless of whether she feels something when she kills people. She is obviously troubled, but I hesitate to lump her in the evil "psychopath" category. Anyways. Sorry but I felt it needed said. The discussion is not productive and none of us are Psychiatrists so I'd rather we talk about Arya's story and less about her psyche. About the Waif and her obvious vendetta against Arya: Maybe the jealousy/anger the Waif feels for her isn't as important to the Faceless Men because she doesn't let it get in the way of her job? Despite her clear emotions, she's presumably still done everything she was asked to do. Unlike Arya, who has let her emotions and personal feelings of revenge and empathy get in the way of her missions. Twice. In the case of the Waif, it seems somewhat coincidental (or maybe not) that she was assigned to kill someone she clearly hates, but this could well be a test for Arya, to see if she'll "add a face to the hall" one way or another. And as for the special interest Jaqen has for her, he alluded to something last episode: "Shame. A girl has many talents." I'm not entirely sure what those talents are, given that Arya seems to have failed quite a bit since she arrived. Maybe it's the talents that she learned? Or maybe it was just her determination to practically walk through the riverlands then sail across the Narrow Sea to find them, but I don't really think that's it. I think the waif is still being tested as well. It could be her undoing having a grudge against arya. And probably will be. Yeh I'm not sure that is it either. He probably just sees potential in her. It could be as simple as that. I would love to find out that the test was in fact for the waif as much as for Arya. Her bitter grudge does seem very opposing to the lessons Jaqen has been teaching. He told Arya they're not supposed to have feelings for their targets whether the person is bad or good or to ask questions. But it's clearly obvious the Waif does have strong feelings in bucket-loads against Arya.
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Post by kingeomer on Jun 1, 2016 12:36:59 GMT
I kind of think of Arya as GRRM's exploration on the effects of war on a child. She was there when her father was killed. She was almost there (in the books) when her mother and brother are killed. In the show, she sees her brother's corpse paraded around mockingly.
Arya has very little trust. She has very little safety. She has no home. She's had to basically survive on her own. She may have had caretakers on the way but she's had to learn to get by without them as well.
I will say she might not have felt too much for the Frey she killed in 3x10 and why should she when he was bragging about sewing Grey Wind's head to Robb's body. You might even say her kill in 4x01 is extension of that anger and grief. Meryn Trant is for Syrio. I think with the actress, we are seeing Arya reclaim some moral ground and realize she's not going to be a part of someone else's vendetta. She may have her own vendettas but whether she chooses to do anything about them or is able to do anything about them, remains to be seen.
I like the idea of Arya also being a test for the Waif as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 13:02:03 GMT
I kind of think of Arya as GRRM's exploration on the effects of war on a child. She was there when her father was killed. She was almost there (in the books) when her mother and brother are killed. In the show, she sees her brother's corpse paraded around mockingly. Arya has very little trust. She has very little safety. She has no home. She's had to basically survive on her own. She may have had caretakers on the way but she's had to learn to get by without them as well. I will say she might not have felt too much for the Frey she killed in 3x10 and why should she when he was bragging about sewing Grey Wind's head to Robb's body. You might even say her kill in 4x01 is extension of that anger and grief. Meryn Trant is for Syrio. I think with the actress, we are seeing Arya reclaim some moral ground and realize she's not going to be a part of someone else's vendetta. She may have her own vendettas but whether she chooses to do anything about them or is able to do anything about them, remains to be seen. I like the idea of Arya also being a test for the Waif as well. Oh I like this thought and it's definitely fitting to the situation she's encountered between Lady Crane and the younger actress. She realizes this is not her issue and she doesn't want to be party to it. We could also say she felt some sympathy for Cersei when she saw the 'sad' spin on it Lady Crane did in the play. She tells Lady Crane Cersei would be angry, not sad at that moment because she knows that's how Cersei reacted. She also realizes that she's been acting the same way ... angry at all the deaths and wrongs done to her family. She and Cersei share a connection that way, oddly. Great observation on that kingeomer ! Arya as an angry and confused war-child is very fitting. I do agree with others that she's never going to go back to being a normal kid in Westeros again. She'll have to find a new path.
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Post by Enid on Jun 1, 2016 13:44:40 GMT
I honestly believe Arya can't kill anyone unless she is certain the person she is going to kill has done something terrible. Lady Crane is a nice woman who has done nothing to deserve death, all she has done is being better at her job than that jealous twat.
Plus she complemented Arya's eyebrows and that makes her cool.
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Post by day dreamer on Jun 1, 2016 13:45:48 GMT
I like the idea of Arya going back to the HOBAW and giving Jaqen the Waif's face. I'm not sure if she'd have the nerve to do that or not. I think it makes sense for show Arya because after she leaves Braavos, I don't imagine we'll see it again. In the books I'm not convinced the FM won't send someone after her.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 13:47:47 GMT
I like the idea of Arya going back to the HOBAW and giving Jaqen the Waif's face. I'm not sure if she'd have the nerve to do that or not. I think it makes sense for show Arya because after she leaves Braavos, I don't imagine we'll see it again. In the books I'm not convinced the FM won't send someone after her. In the books they are revered world-wide and feared. Rightly so considering they can take on any form they want and thus always have the perfect disguise. They are also said to be extremely expensive to hire, which I found a little odd on the show considering the younger actress probably would not have the money required to hire a FM don't you think?
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Post by Enid on Jun 1, 2016 13:53:44 GMT
I like the idea of Arya going back to the HOBAW and giving Jaqen the Waif's face. I'm not sure if she'd have the nerve to do that or not. I think it makes sense for show Arya because after she leaves Braavos, I don't imagine we'll see it again. In the books I'm not convinced the FM won't send someone after her. In the books they are revered world-wide and feared. Rightly so considering they can take on any form they want and thus always have the perfect disguise. They are also said to be extremely expensive to hire, which I found a little odd on the show considering the younger actress probably would not have the money required to hire a FM don't you think? The FM charge depending on what the victim is, and how rich is the person who orders the hit. I kind of think their M.O. is to ask for a percentage of a person's possessions, like, a third of whatever you have or half of everything. And when a person has nothing, the price is their face.
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Post by day dreamer on Jun 1, 2016 13:54:01 GMT
I like the idea of Arya going back to the HOBAW and giving Jaqen the Waif's face. I'm not sure if she'd have the nerve to do that or not. I think it makes sense for show Arya because after she leaves Braavos, I don't imagine we'll see it again. In the books I'm not convinced the FM won't send someone after her. In the books they are revered world-wide and feared. Rightly so considering they can take on any form they want and thus always have the perfect disguise. They are also said to be extremely expensive to hire, which I found a little odd on the show considering the younger actress probably would not have the money required to hire a FM don't you think? Girlfriend was determined and was saving for years.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 17:21:26 GMT
I was really hoping we could move on from the "psychopath" argument, maybe @fireandblood? I think what we're taking exception to is the very negative reaction to the term as in the story we relate that term to truly horrific people and acts such as Ramsay has done. Can we please not label that on Arya? It's not even fair in a fantasy story. I'm sure you know full well how terrible "labels" can be in your own life and how mean people can be with those sorts of blanket statements, surely. I mean nothing but love here, but it's not helping the Arya plot development discussion to keep calling her that regardless of whether she feels something when she kills people. She is obviously troubled, but I hesitate to lump her in the evil "psychopath" category. Anyways. Sorry but I felt it needed said. The discussion is not productive and none of us are Psychiatrists so I'd rather we talk about Arya's story and less about her psyche. I think the waif is still being tested as well. It could be her undoing having a grudge against arya. And probably will be. Yeh I'm not sure that is it either. He probably just sees potential in her. It could be as simple as that. I would love to find out that the test was in fact for the waif as much as for Arya. Her bitter grudge does seem very opposing to the lessons Jaqen has been teaching. He told Arya they're not supposed to have feelings for their targets whether the person is bad or good or to ask questions. But it's clearly obvious the Waif does have strong feelings in bucket-loads against Arya. I'm not even the one who brought it up at first, but sure - let's move past it
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 17:24:30 GMT
In the books they are revered world-wide and feared. Rightly so considering they can take on any form they want and thus always have the perfect disguise. They are also said to be extremely expensive to hire, which I found a little odd on the show considering the younger actress probably would not have the money required to hire a FM don't you think? The FM charge depending on what the victim is, and how rich is the person who orders the hit. I kind of think their M.O. is to ask for a percentage of a person's possessions, like, a third of whatever you have or half of everything. And when a person has nothing, the price is their face. I always thought the charge was less a percentage of the wealth, but a price that someone would only be willing to pay unless they were really, really serious. You could argue that a certain % of someone's wealth would fall into that category but I think it's much more ambiguous. Like giving up one of your children to be a servant of the many faced god or something.
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