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Post by archiechvyalthan on May 24, 2016 1:18:04 GMT
No pun intended, Mr. Bender.  I just love the episode's underlying idea that not only are tragedy and triumph not opposite concepts, but that they can be the same thing simultaneously. The genius of the episode is how Hodor's biggest tragedy and biggest act of heroism are one and the same thing. How do we judge something like that? Do we blame Bran for getting too cocky and warging young Hodor, messing him up for good? Or do we think the present victory could not have happened without Bran's mistake? Both readings are valid as long as they aren't isolated. We are taken outside the game of thrones and put in the position of some god who sees time in a non-human way, sees things whole. And after that happens, the judgment of particular actions becomes extraordinarily difficult  I don't think this is a lame "all things happen for a greater good" meme either. The horror of what Bran did is not undone by Hodor's martyrdom. Hodor had no choice in being a martyr - except at the very end where he consciously chose to save Bran from the wights.... the cosmic joke being this is also the same moment his mind was enslaved as a child. Again, how the hell do we "judge" such a thing or come to terms with it? Something similar though less overt happened with the children of the forest. They unleashed a horror they did not understand in the slightest, but without this act, they would never have protected Bran either. They would never have realized what they did was unnatural to the core. It feels like the episode where we finally enter a much grander game than the politicking. There is something far beyond the personal at work here, which I think is the Three-Eyed Raven's final lesson to Bran. Bran missed the point entirely by trying to see everything through Stark eyes. And the episode puts the audience in an equally tight spot, pretty much new in GoT. Sorry for the length but this episode is awesome  Anyone else been similarly confused/excited/amazed? |
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Post by Nezzer on May 24, 2016 2:18:08 GMT
I found this great explanation that makes the time travel situation much easier to understand:
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/4kqc1y/everything_my_take_on_that_scene_explained_in_the/
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 4:36:53 GMT
Yeh I think it was a problem of can't be 3 people at once.
Can't wait to see how George explains this one. Literally had a long discussion about this with my friend and hr thinks its a time paradox which it could be but he was confusing the situation badly haha.
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Post by archiechvyalthan on May 24, 2016 6:36:27 GMT
I found this great explanation that makes the time travel situation much easier to understand: https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/4kqc1y/everything_my_take_on_that_scene_explained_in_the/ It's pretty brilliant how the scene borders on science fiction, without quite getting there. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 7:01:23 GMT
Yeh I think it was a problem of can't be 3 people at once. Can't wait to see how George explains this one. Literally had a long discussion about this with my friend and hr thinks its a time paradox which it could be but he was confusing the situation badly haha. We need Doc Brown to figure this shit out. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 19:08:45 GMT
It feels like the episode where we finally enter a much grander game than the politicking. There is something far beyond the personal at work here, which I think is the Three-Eyed Raven's final lesson to Bran. Bran missed the point entirely by trying to see everything through Stark eyes. And the episode puts the audience in an equally tight spot, pretty much new in GoT. I think this is one of the first times we can start to say for certain that a major story reveal is changing some of the previously assumed ideals and theories on the outcome of the entire saga. The "Great Game" as Tyrion calls it is bigger even than he knows. And now we are starting to see some of those minute stitches coming together that GRRM has been carefully sewing together over decades. What tore a rip in the fabric of it all? The Children are only another factor in the big picture and they are as fallible as men. It definitely seems as if we are going to learn how and why it all started and came to the point we're at now and that is very exciting. Bran is the conduit into the secrets we're learning. The reveal about how the White Walkers came to be was shocking to me, as I never would have guessed it. I hope Bran learned how his power is a dangerous thing when he saw what happened to Hodor. |
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Post by archiechvyalthan on May 24, 2016 21:38:16 GMT
It feels like the episode where we finally enter a much grander game than the politicking. There is something far beyond the personal at work here, which I think is the Three-Eyed Raven's final lesson to Bran. Bran missed the point entirely by trying to see everything through Stark eyes. And the episode puts the audience in an equally tight spot, pretty much new in GoT. I think this is one of the first times we can start to say for certain that a major story reveal is changing some of the previously assumed ideals and theories on the outcome of the entire saga. The "Great Game" as Tyrion calls it is bigger even than he knows. And now we are starting to see some of those minute stitches coming together that GRRM has been carefully sewing together over decades. What tore a rip in the fabric of it all? The Children are only another factor in the big picture and they are as fallible as men. It definitely seems as if we are going to learn how and why it all started and came to the point we're at now and that is very exciting. Bran is the conduit into the secrets we're learning. The reveal about how the White Walkers came to be was shocking to me, as I never would have guessed it. I hope Bran learned how his power is a dangerous thing when he saw what happened to Hodor. Exactly. As you say, it's a great reveal that even the wise nature creatures were corrupted. There's no one to turn to now. Men have to play the bigger game on their own, which is pretty scary. |
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Post by Mecha-StannisForever on May 24, 2016 21:40:01 GMT
It's so in keeping with GoT's sad, tragic storytelling to take something everyone enjoyed (Hodor'ing) and to twist it so that it has become something depressing to think about. That is fantastic.
It makes me wonder if George planned that from the start. Holding a door closed is such a specific thing to build to...
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Post by archiechvyalthan on May 24, 2016 21:42:19 GMT
It's so in keeping with GoT's sad, tragic storytelling to take something everyone enjoyed (Hodor'ing) and to twist it so that it has become something depressing to think about. That is fantastic. It makes me wonder if George planned that from the start. Holding a door closed is such a specific thing to build to... It's brilliant on many levels. It definitely seems planned from the beginning imo. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 21:55:02 GMT
It's so in keeping with GoT's sad, tragic storytelling to take something everyone enjoyed (Hodor'ing) and to twist it so that it has become something depressing to think about. That is fantastic. It makes me wonder if George planned that from the start. Holding a door closed is such a specific thing to build to... I'm pretty sure he had it planned out from Day 1 he wrote Hodor's character. And if we think about that, we have to think about the bigger picture going on around Hodor at that time (Bran's involvement and Three Eyed Raven and The Children) because he must certainly known where that was all going to lead up to Hodor's moment as well. I love that bit Ozzy Man put in his review, a random interview with GRRM where the interviewer asks "What's the reasoning behind the name Hodor?" and he laughs and says "I guess you'll have to keep reading." He has known all these years that the reason would be such a shock it would make us feel terrible for laughing at poor Hodor.  |
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on May 25, 2016 8:14:47 GMT
It's so in keeping with GoT's sad, tragic storytelling to take something everyone enjoyed (Hodor'ing) and to twist it so that it has become something depressing to think about. That is fantastic. It makes me wonder if George planned that from the start. Holding a door closed is such a specific thing to build to... I'm pretty sure he had it planned out from Day 1 he wrote Hodor's character. And if we think about that, we have to think about the bigger picture going on around Hodor at that time (Bran's involvement and Three Eyed Raven and The Children) because he must certainly known where that was all going to lead up to Hodor's moment as well. I love that bit Ozzy Man put in his review, a random interview with GRRM where the interviewer asks "What's the reasoning behind the name Hodor?" and he laughs and says "I guess you'll have to keep reading." He has known all these years that the reason would be such a shock it would make us feel terrible for laughing at poor Hodor. In another interview someone jokingly says to GRRM that Hodor's name is really because of "hold the door" (something about being a lift attendant or something sparked the comment) and GRRM chucked and said "You don't know how close to the truth you are." He's known all along |
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2016 11:43:44 GMT
I think there's no doubt that it is a paradox, but I'm okay with it. It's a circle...I get the impression that Bloodraven has lived that horrible moment many times via visions...or perhaps directly in the show. That's how he knew Bran was touched, how he knew it mean they could get in the cave, how he knew they were coming. Maybe in the show Bloodraven IS Bran, as someone else guessed elsewhere.
Remember after Jojen died Bran said he didn't want anyone to die for him? Bloodraven, Summer, Leaf, and Hodor all sacrificed themselves for him, in addition to Jojen. His role must be very important to warrant all that.
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I just love the episode's underlying idea that not only are tragedy and triumph not opposite concepts, but that they can be the same thing simultaneously.
Anyone else been similarly confused/excited/amazed?
