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May 17, 2016 18:08:38 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 18:08:38 GMT
I'm pretty surprised by your poor opinion of the scene but not just that the fire scene was somehow badly directed. I could accept that criticism but saying you don't understand why she did what she did or why you're supposed to root for her? How could that scene be confusing? Just before she was taken in front of these men who will "decide her fate" we hear how the young Khaleesi was married to her Khal at 12 and had her ribs broken for bearing a daughter instead of a son. Does the horrific rape/abuse/property message only make sense if it's Sansa having the same done to her by the monster Ramsay? It's the same exact situation here but on a much larger scale. Women are 'property' to these men, to be used, abused and killed as they see fit. Daenerys' overall theme of hating being 'property' is what motivates her to destroy the entire collective patriarchy in one room. This looks villainous or insane to you? I never hear the same sorts of criticisms on leadership about any other character in the show the way I often do about Daenerys. How she is not fit to lead because of her multiple "failures" yet here is one small person who consistently bests men, cities and armies multiple times over. It's baffling really why she is judged so strangely when no king in Westeros has done half what she's done since her own ancestors ruled. Yes I get it she's a 'divisive character' but I would think that division would be over realistic expectations. It seems Daenerys hate will always be over judgements I fail to understand people making. Everyone's certainly entitled to an opinion of her character but if you didn't even understand the reason she destroyed the Khals... it's a little difficult to respect that. Was she supposed to act submissive to them in order to get sent to the Dosh Khaleen instead of being raped by all of them? Was that the intended outcome you expected? I think the problem with Dany's story is that she doesn't have well developed, recurring antagonists. It depends on a villain-of-the-week formula, with cartoon villains nobody cares about that are one dimensional and always underestimate her, and then she defeats them without taking any losses. The stakes are too low. There's no recurring antagonist, no personal element to the conflicts she faces, no real drama. She had never met any of those dothraki before, and they never did anything to her before, just now that they were threatening her. This is why I and many others are not so interested in her storyline and why her big moments fall short to us. The bold is probably a good thing. I think many of us are sick to death of Ramsay Bolton at this point.
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Post by Nezzer on May 17, 2016 18:12:12 GMT
I think the problem with Dany's story is that she doesn't have well developed, recurring antagonists. It depends on a villain-of-the-week formula, with cartoon villains nobody cares about that are one dimensional and always underestimate her, and then she defeats them without taking any losses. The stakes are too low. There's no recurring antagonist, no personal element to the conflicts she faces, no real drama. She had never met any of those dothraki before, and they never did anything to her before, just now that they were threatening her. This is why I and many others are not so interested in her storyline and why her big moments fall short to us. The bold is probably a good thing. I think many of us are sick to death of Ramsay Bolton at this point. He's getting boring, that's true, but when he falls it will be a lot more rewarding than Dany roasting Slave Master #54 with dragon fire. She is basically just killing random evil people, and that gets boring too.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 18:14:30 GMT
The bold is probably a good thing. I think many of us are sick to death of Ramsay Bolton at this point. He's getting boring, that's true, but when he falls it will be a lot more rewarding than Dany roasting Slave Master #54 with dragon fire. She is basically just killing random evil people, and that gets boring too. MMD will probably continue to be Dany's best antagonist. At least until she gets to Westeros. No argument there.
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Post by Admin on May 17, 2016 18:16:12 GMT
The bold is probably a good thing. I think many of us are sick to death of Ramsay Bolton at this point. He's getting boring, that's true, but when he falls it will be a lot more rewarding than Dany roasting Slave Master #54 with dragon fire. She is basically just killing random evil people, and that gets boring too. Yes but random people don't take screentime away from others. 4 seasons of Ramsay torturing people is about 2 season too many
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 18:18:33 GMT
The bold is probably a good thing. I think many of us are sick to death of Ramsay Bolton at this point. He's getting boring, that's true, but when he falls it will be a lot more rewarding than Dany roasting Slave Master #54 with dragon fire. She is basically just killing random evil people, and that gets boring too. This. When antagonists who've been in the story for a long time fall, it feels rewarding. For the most people . Joffrey and Tywin in Season 4, now the Boltons. When Dany burns random evil slavers/rapists, it's just meh. No one is going to give a fuck. GRRM is even worse than D&D in this regard. Every fucking slaver he introduces is basically just a Disney villain. Which is one of the reasons why many people dislike Slaver's Bay arc in the books.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 18:19:41 GMT
I think the problem with Dany's story is that she doesn't have well developed, recurring antagonists. It depends on a villain-of-the-week formula, with cartoon villains nobody cares about that are one dimensional and always underestimate her, and then she defeats them without taking any losses. The stakes are too low. There's no recurring antagonist, no personal element to the conflicts she faces, no real drama. She had never met any of those dothraki before, and they never did anything to her before, just now that they were threatening her. This is why I and many others are not so interested in her storyline and why her big moments fall short to us. I completely agree with you about the antagonists thing. For Daenerys, her main antagonist is a cultural philosophy (ownership, slavery, treatment of women) and not a person or thing. Daenerys has met these Dothraki before though if not the exact men in that room. She was in Vaes Dothrak, she knows who the Dosh Khaleen are and the life sentence they all carry out for no other reason than being the widows of Khals. This is a strange custom and just more proof of 'injustice' which is a loose term she likes to throw around and be angry about. Dany's fight is one far too big for the world she lives in. She's a feminist fighting a battle in a world that (Essos) has even less tolerance and respect for it than even Westeros does. Her nemesis is too great and people get annoyed by her continued determination to best it when it seems like a pointless battle. I prefer to think that over time, her message and influence will be for the greater good as young women look up to her and begin to change the society structure of Essos. Like our own historical culture ... slavery will end, women's rights will improve and racism will start to decrease. Not because Daenerys forbids it but because she leaves the seeds of change behind when she goes.
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Post by Nezzer on May 17, 2016 18:23:58 GMT
He's getting boring, that's true, but when he falls it will be a lot more rewarding than Dany roasting Slave Master #54 with dragon fire. She is basically just killing random evil people, and that gets boring too. MMD will probably continue to be Dany's best antagonist. At least until she gets to Westeros. No argument there. I think Viserys was a great antagonist too. Both he and MMD were great because they affected her very personally and that created some real tension and real drama, with lasting effect that are still being felt five books in. The Qarth villains were a complete joke and the slave masters from Slaver's Bay weren't much better. Her victories over them don't feel earned to me.
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Post by Nezzer on May 17, 2016 18:27:23 GMT
He's getting boring, that's true, but when he falls it will be a lot more rewarding than Dany roasting Slave Master #54 with dragon fire. She is basically just killing random evil people, and that gets boring too. Yes but random people don't take screentime away from others. 4 seasons of Ramsay torturing people is about 2 season too many Yeah, he should've been used better, but I still prefer a single Ramsay for two or three seasons over a different shallow villain every episode.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 18:28:06 GMT
MMD will probably continue to be Dany's best antagonist. At least until she gets to Westeros. No argument there. I think Viserys was a great antagonist too. Both he and MMD were great because they affected her very personally and that created some real tension and real drama, with lasting effect that are still being felt five books in. The Qarth villains were a complete joke and the slave masters from Slaver's Bay weren't much better. Her victories over them don't feel earned to me. They were cartoonish like villains in the books too. Perhaps if GRRM had made some overall ruler of the slaver cities, and put a face to the 'injustice' Dany is fighting, it might have felt more real and victorious? Instead she's fighting a cause against something as vague as the Sons of the Harpy in their masks. I do understand that.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 18:30:05 GMT
MMD will probably continue to be Dany's best antagonist. At least until she gets to Westeros. No argument there. I think Viserys was a great antagonist too. Both he and MMD were great because they affected her very personally and that created some real tension and real drama, with lasting effect that are still being felt five books in. The Qarth villains were a complete joke and the slave masters from Slaver's Bay weren't much better. Her victories over them don't feel earned to me. Well, the show really screwed up Xaro imo. He's a good character in the books, as is the Green Grace (who's basically the Essos QoT). I also like Skahaz. Who all could be considered antagonists to Dany, despite actually supposedly working with her. I did enjoy the show version of Hizdahr though.
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Post by Nezzer on May 17, 2016 18:39:22 GMT
I think Viserys was a great antagonist too. Both he and MMD were great because they affected her very personally and that created some real tension and real drama, with lasting effect that are still being felt five books in. The Qarth villains were a complete joke and the slave masters from Slaver's Bay weren't much better. Her victories over them don't feel earned to me. Well, the show really screwed up Xaro imo. He's a good character in the books, as is the Green Grace (who's basically the Essos QoT). I also like Skahaz. Who all could be considered antagonists to Dany, despite actually supposedly working with her. I did enjoy the show version of Hizdahr though. None of those were actual antagonists in the books, though. Xaro was an opportunist who wanted to use, but didn't inflict harm on her like his show counterpart did. Skahaz is just a ruthless servant and the Green Grace might be the mastermind behind the SotH, but she still hasn't assumed the position of antagonist. Hizdahr is the closest thing to it, but even so... I don't know. The other Meereen characters are completely forgettable IMHO.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 19:01:13 GMT
I'm a little late to the discussion but I wanted to add that D&D certainly intended the scene is Vaes Dothrak to be a triumphant movement for Dany. If you watch the commentary after the show they clearly state that they wanted Dany to show how she could be strong even when she was in a position of weakness and how she didn't have to depend on her dragon to save her, she essential did it on her own.
You have this young women who was being treated as an object in a temple where other women who are treated as objects live and you have her burn that down and burn down these men who treat women and slaves as object. Then you have her emerge, showing that she is not an object she is a person, a strong, determined person, who can take matters into her own hands. Tearing away at this symbols of subjugation, it's like @envie said probably too much, but showing other that it can be done is planting the seeds for a better future.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 19:08:05 GMT
I'm a little late to the discussion but I wanted to add that D&D certainly intended the scene is Vaes Dothrak to be a triumphant movement for Dany. If you watch the commentary after the show they clearly state that they wanted Dany to show how she could be strong even when she was in a position of weakness and how she didn't have to depend on her dragon to save her, she essential did it on her own. You have this young women who was being treated as an object in a temple where other women who are treated as objects live and you have her burn that down and burn down these men who treat women and slaves as object. Then you have her emerge, showing that she is not an object she is a person, a strong, determined person, who can take matters into her own hands. Tearing away at this symbols of subjugation, it's like @envie said probably too much, but showing other that it can be done is planting the seeds for a better future. I did say too much! I'm willing to admit I can get carried away arguing this topic. I even admitted to editing out my over-reaching bits. Thank you for saying it much more concisely. I want to reiterate that I respect the opposing opinions even if I don't understand them. I try to get behind the perspective. It's hard to disagree and still maintain perspective. I appreciate having a forum to do so with intelligent people here.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 19:08:05 GMT
On a different note, while we are discussing Dany, I like the juxtaposition of her once again embracing her role and her strength to try and change the world, even when she has failed, and Jon's resistance to it, after having tried and failed.
With Jon obviously it was the high price of losing his life while with Dany it's the price of loosing her people, Ser Barristan among them.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 19:11:34 GMT
I rewatched the ending last night and I still think it was so, so terribly made. Just to clarify: I have no problems with how the scene was written. Dany for me is at her best when she is morally ambiguous or does something that leans a bit closer towards the side of darkness. This scene was definitely the latter*. I just think it was terribly directed. The editing I thought was awful, the music which is always so perfect for Dany did not fit for me, and I thought there was something really off with everyone bowing. I'm just very disappointed, because they usually nail Dany's big scenes, but IMO this was a bad misfire.
*Dany murdered the Khals, essentially. She went in to the temple completely planning to goad them and kill them. She goaded them, got them to threaten her and then burnt them alive. Murder.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 19:15:27 GMT
I'm a little late to the discussion but I wanted to add that D&D certainly intended the scene is Vaes Dothrak to be a triumphant movement for Dany. If you watch the commentary after the show they clearly state that they wanted Dany to show how she could be strong even when she was in a position of weakness and how she didn't have to depend on her dragon to save her, she essential did it on her own. You have this young women who was being treated as an object in a temple where other women who are treated as objects live and you have her burn that down and burn down these men who treat women and slaves as object. Then you have her emerge, showing that she is not an object she is a person, a strong, determined person, who can take matters into her own hands. Tearing away at this symbols of subjugation, it's like @envie said probably too much, but showing other that it can be done is planting the seeds for a better future. I did say too much! I'm willing to admit I can get carried away arguing this topic. I even admitted to editing out my over-reaching bits. Thank you for saying it much more concisely. I want to reiterate that I respect the opposing opinions even if I don't understand them. I try to get behind the perspective. It's hard to disagree and still maintain perspective. I appreciate having a forum to do so with intelligent people here. Wrongly placed comma, I meant Dany trying too much. But you get where I was going. And completely agree with you, it's nice to disagree with people without it getting hurtful or aggressive. There were many a dark time in westeros. org where it got really ugly. I will say though that I use to be a lot more gung-ho about arguing and trying to explain Dany's position within asoiaf but I argued it so much that I just got tired. I do think that she is a very complex character that resides in the gray scale, she can me one of the most empathetic characters in the story and yet can turn around and be incredibly cruel to people, who for the most part, could be considered evil. I think that this duality of personality can confuse people and have them think that she could be villainous. Whatever her faults may be, she has always been on the side of helping those who cannot help themselves or who are unable to help themselves. I don't think she is unable to temper her temperament but when you see such gross injustice it's hard not to react in kind. If she lives I think she can learn to be more level headed, she's not above evolving, I mean she's 16 in the books and like 21 in the show. She's still very young.
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May 17, 2016 19:16:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 19:16:21 GMT
She murdered the Good Masters in Astapor as well, so what? They were awful people who needed to die. The story from the young Khaleesi should have drove that point home. No tears for the Khals from me. Quite the opposite actually.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 19:19:27 GMT
I rewatched the ending last night and I still think it was so, so terribly made. Just to clarify: I have no problems with how the scene was written. Dany for me is at her best when she is morally ambiguous or does something that leans a bit closer towards the side of darkness. This scene was definitely the latter*. I just think it was terribly directed. The editing I thought was awful, the music which is always so perfect for Dany did not fit for me, and I thought there was something really off with everyone bowing. I'm just very disappointed, because they usually nail Dany's big scenes, but IMO this was a bad misfire. *Dany murdered the Khals, essentially. She went in to the temple completely planning to goad them and kill them. She goaded them, got them to threaten her and then burnt them alive. Murder. Yes she murdered them. But before she even spoke a word, they were planning what to do with her. Either sell her to Slave Masters for 10,000 horses, rape her, let the fat Khal who liked her have her for his own, or banish her to the Dosh Khaleen. None of those were obviously going to be options for Daenerys. She knew what they were going to say before she even went in there. There was no option to talk her way out. Yes she goaded them, but that was after they already talked about her like a piece of meat. I do agree with you about the music though. I usually really like the compositions they have given her grand scenes but this one wasn't that fitting. Maybe they were going for a more 'evil' theme? I also think they left it a bit too ambiguous about how exactly she made that fire spread so quickly so I do accept the criticisms some have on that. I'm happy we finally have a scene where we can definitively say Daenerys did something violent on purpose. Fire and Blood is not an easy saying to carry for your house words.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 19:25:10 GMT
She murdered the Good Masters in Astapor as well, so what? They were awful people who needed to die. The story from the young Khaleesi should have drove that point home. No tears for the Khals from me. Quite the opposite actually. P.S. I love you signature not because of the movie, which I haven't seen and need to see, but because I think Toshiro Mifune is so handsome.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 19:27:31 GMT
She murdered the Good Masters in Astapor as well, so what? They were awful people who needed to die. The story from the young Khaleesi should have drove that point home. No tears for the Khals from me. Quite the opposite actually. I like it, because it makes her grey, and grey is a lot more interesting than white Dany's "mother" persona is really loving, caring and nurturing, but her "dragon" persona is cruel, violent and kind of awful. She's 50/50 crazy Targ/great Targ and that's why she's my favourite character, next to QitN Sansa of the House Stark
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