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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 6:31:44 GMT
um, if you only want replies from people equally willing to give dorne a chance then you wouldn't have any replies. the rest of us enjoy the show just fine while making fun of dorne. perhaps we can direct you to a board run by a former member here if you're so desperate for another dorne fan. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
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Post by Nezzer on Apr 30, 2016 6:38:23 GMT
Two people have tried to debate with you, and twice you've shot them down and told them they are not responding the way you want which is to say you only want people to reply to this thread if they agree with you. That's not how debating here works. No one else is going to reply because why say " I agree with your monologue!" ... it's just an echo chamber. I get what you're saying, there are already criticism posts and we've all lamented about the sandsnakes enough, so why not see the positive side to it. The problem is, if you don't allow anyone to discuss their disagreements to your essays, there's no way to see any different perspective. You're demanding only complete agreement. Look, I want discussion. And I am fine with people continuing to critique Dorne like they do on every single other thread. What I was trying to do with THIS thread was different. It simply will not work if people respond to my "more positive light" posts by casting negative light. There are THOUSANDS of places to look at the negatives od Dorne's execution. I wanted ONE place where we could try to reframe things to make it easier to enjoy the show. That doesn't mean what is said here is the final word it simply means this thread has a different goal, and that goal was clearly stated in the OP. Some of the reframings I have provided above are clearly intended to be a bit cheeky. Yet people came on here and debated them (or mocked them) as if they are serious matters for debate. They are not. They are simply a matter of taking Mel's necklace and putting it on Dorne! So why the need to debate it? Maybe instead, make a better necklace here! I appreciate your effort, but it's pretty hard to make Dorne look good no matter how we try to spin it. Let's just accept it for what it is and move on. Let's laugh at the silliness and poor writing/acting/directing/whatever just as we laugh at "20 good men", "your sister", LF's accent, "where are muh dragons" and other epic fails of past seasons. The show wasn't ruined by them and it still has not been ruined by Dorne, so let's just move on.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 8:11:43 GMT
Look, I want discussion. And I am fine with people continuing to critique Dorne like they do on every single other thread. What I was trying to do with THIS thread was different. It simply will not work if people respond to my "more positive light" posts by casting negative light. There are THOUSANDS of places to look at the negatives od Dorne's execution. I wanted ONE place where we could try to reframe things to make it easier to enjoy the show. That doesn't mean what is said here is the final word it simply means this thread has a different goal, and that goal was clearly stated in the OP. Some of the reframings I have provided above are clearly intended to be a bit cheeky. Yet people came on here and debated them (or mocked them) as if they are serious matters for debate. They are not. They are simply a matter of taking Mel's necklace and putting it on Dorne! So why the need to debate it? Maybe instead, make a better necklace here! I appreciate your effort, but it's pretty hard to make Dorne look good no matter how we try to spin it. Let's just accept it for what it is and move on. Let's laugh at the silliness and poor writing/acting/directing/whatever just as we laugh at "20 good men", "your sister", LF's accent, "where are muh dragons" and other epic fails of past seasons. The show wasn't ruined by them and it still has not been ruined by Dorne, so let's just move on. The problem is, none of that is fun for me. I am sure I am not alone. All of the constant negativity surrounding Dorne interferes badly with my general enjoyment. It makes it so that I can't go to any forum or thread anywhere without a general sense that contempt is feeding off of contempt in a never ending spiral. If you don't want to attempt to see things more positively that is totally fine, but why the hell is it too much to ask that a single thread, out of thousands, be dedicated to talking about it differently?
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Post by Nezzer on Apr 30, 2016 8:32:11 GMT
I appreciate your effort, but it's pretty hard to make Dorne look good no matter how we try to spin it. Let's just accept it for what it is and move on. Let's laugh at the silliness and poor writing/acting/directing/whatever just as we laugh at "20 good men", "your sister", LF's accent, "where are muh dragons" and other epic fails of past seasons. The show wasn't ruined by them and it still has not been ruined by Dorne, so let's just move on. The problem is, none of that is fun for me. I am sure I am not alone. All of the constant negativity surrounding Dorne interferes badly with my general enjoyment. It makes it so that I can't go to any forum or thread anywhere without a general sense that contempt is feeding off of contempt in a never ending spiral. If you don't want to attempt to see things more positively that is totally fine, but why the hell is it too much to ask that a single thread, out of thousands, be dedicated to talking about it differently? I understand how you feel. This is basically how most of us here feel about those nitpickers from Westeros.org who make huge rants complaining about the smallest details. My problem with them is not that they complain so much, but that they are very unreasonable in their complaints, trying as hard as they can to find an excuse to shit on the show and ignoring all the good things. We are not doing that with Dorne here. A lot of us are just incredibly disappointed that they wasted a great actor and somewhat decent source material in exchange for what we've got. We might joke about it once in a while, but the coreography of the infamous fight scene from S5, for instance, is not something we are constantly criticizing here because we know it was poor due to the limited time they had to shoot inside the Alcazar. The writing and the acting is what we usually focus on, and both could've been much better, even casual non-readers think that from what I've seen. That said, I think it's great to have positivity, and this thread can be great to discuss Dorne in a hopeful manner. However, we have to acknowledge the mistakes the show has made in order to figure out how they can make things better. I am sure that you don't think the show is perfect either, so we have to acknowledge their fuck ups if we want to have some hopeful speculation. We can make this thread ridicule-free, but simply ignoring the mistakes won't make it any better. Blindly defending Dorne can be just as unreasonable as the rants from the cesspool of negativity that Westeros.org has become.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 12:51:19 GMT
I do acknowledge there have been mistakes, and I was also clear on that in the OP. I think you are still misunderstanding the point here:
This was supposed to be fun.
Clearly it has backfired, but the intent, as I thought I had made clear, was NOT to pretend there were no problems, but to use a bit of creative imagination to simply look at it from a different angle. Clearly some of the problems require more stretching and creativity to see positively than others, but that is where the fun comes in. I am sure I am not the only person who is capable of BOTH saying there were problems and picking things apart in detail to say what they were AND suspending that critical capacity to find a more entertaining way of looking at it. It is not one or the other.
Sure, if the goal was "how can Dorne be fixed in future" the critical aspect is more relevant. But that was simply not the goal here. The goal here was to take the existing problematic scenes and spin doctor them.
It could be fun if you let it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 13:30:19 GMT
Look, I want discussion. And I am fine with people continuing to critique Dorne like they do on every single other thread. What I was trying to do with THIS thread was different. It simply will not work if people respond to my "more positive light" posts by casting negative light. There are THOUSANDS of places to look at the negatives od Dorne's execution. I wanted ONE place where we could try to reframe things to make it easier to enjoy the show. That doesn't mean what is said here is the final word it simply means this thread has a different goal, and that goal was clearly stated in the OP. Some of the reframings I have provided above are clearly intended to be a bit cheeky. Yet people came on here and debated them (or mocked them) as if they are serious matters for debate. They are not. They are simply a matter of taking Mel's necklace and putting it on Dorne! So why the need to debate it? Maybe instead, make a better necklace here! I think as others have said, the problem is that the negative issues with the Dorne plot out-weigh the positive ones so it's difficult for most everyone here in our group to only discuss the merits or make it fun when our overall opinion is mostly bad. We're not a show-hater group by any means. Lots of us here were 'persecuted' to some degree on another forum for defending the show and actually liking it when it didn't follow the books exactly - that's how we ended up here. We wanted a place to be able to freely discuss both the good and the bad equally and to disagree with one another without being insulted or ganged up on for it. Trust me, when it became clear they were going to put Sansa into the Jeyne Poole storyline with Ramsay for S5- many here were very upset and there was division among us on the merits or harm in choosing such a huge departure from Sansa's book plot. There are still members among us who strongly disagreed with it and we respect that. We accept it and we still discuss it when it comes up. Same with Lady Stoneheart being cut/missing, lots of people didn't care that she was cut, but many cared very deeply. You have to respect that and if you make posts that only allow one or the other view-point it excludes half the group. But to the specifics of your posts, I agree that it's good to try and find the positive in any situation. Try to look on the best side of it. But again, that's difficult to do with Dorne without also discussing the worst of it, which was most of it unfortunately. Here's my short Dorne positives list: - Wonderful actors chosen for Ellaria and Doran (though Siddig was horribly underused for such a great actor)
- Great pairing of Jaime and Bronn - they have awesome/fun chemistry together
- Beautiful set location for Dorne and amazing costumes
- Interesting take on Martell vs. Lannister that gave Cersei even more fodder for her growing insanity
- Myrcella as an individual was interesting where in the books I felt she was bland
And that's pretty much it.
I can't honestly say anything good at all about the Sandsnakes and I can't agree with any of your reasons they potentially gave them the script they did. Pretty girls chosen for the parts, but poorly executed characterizations. Maybe it's not the girls faults at all, maybe it's how they were written. I do not know.
I also can't see much positive in how drastically they completely annihilated the entire Martell household and even begin to understand how Ellaria can justify murdering Oberyn's entire family as part of her vengeance theme. A coup to take over is interesting but there was little indication of that other than her insults to Doran last season. It came as an abrupt shock to most of us and left far too many questions and glaring plot holes than it did making a satisfying story.
I've respectfully read a lot of great arguments about the plot and explanations for how the sandsnakes got to Trystane so fast or how tiny little Tyene managed to one-shot insta kill giant Areo Hotah and how the guards were all mysteriously in on it ... but none of that was even explained on the show. We're left to guess, and I think that's rushed and poor storytelling.
But we don't know the full story yet. And I am patiently waiting to see if any of that will be explained even though part of me just hopes it all just goes away and can be forgotten - that's just how much I disliked it and I'm not even one of the strongest haters here on it.
I hope my long essay in return helped better clarify my own position on it and why I decided to respond to you the way I did. I wasn't trying to be rude, and no one here is - you definitely have every right to want to discuss the positives of the show, when they are there and worth discussing. Sadly, the Dorne story is in very short supply of worthy things to talk about in a good light.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 16:14:39 GMT
They really did exolain why the guards did nothing. Ellaria said Doran's own people hate him at the same time they were showing the guards.
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mau
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Post by mau on Apr 30, 2016 16:25:39 GMT
People just decided to hate Dorne even before S5 aired for some reason, and everything they talk on the internet is one not-so-great fight scene and one bad line.
I think that SS are the only problem in Dorne, they are the reason why internet-fans hate Dorne. Everything else is fine for me. I really like Ellaria and Indira Varma and I think every scene with her was very good. I liked Doran's death scene and I think Ellaria's speech was very powerful.
I think every scene is a prison with SS was ok.
D&D and HBO made a big mistake because they hyped SS so much for no reason before S5. I think their strategy with Euron is much better and I think the reaction to Euron will be much better because people don't have such high expectations.
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Post by Mecha-StannisForever on Apr 30, 2016 17:46:45 GMT
People just decided to hate Dorne even before S5 aired for some reason, and everything they talk on the internet is one not-so-great fight scene and one bad line. I think that SS are the only problem in Dorne, they are the reason why internet-fans hate Dorne. Everything else is fine for me. I really like Ellaria and Indira Varma and I think every scene with her was very good. I liked Doran's death scene and I think Ellaria's speech was very powerful. I think every scene is a prison with SS was ok. D&D and HBO made a big mistake because they hyped SS so much for no reason before S5. I think their strategy with Euron is much better and I think the reaction to Euron will be much better because people don't have such high expectations. Some people yeah sure. The hardcore book fans who hate everything mainly. But when it aired, and even casual fans who tend to like most everything hate it, you know something has gone wrong. Like @envie said there are a few positives, like some of the casting. But it suffered from direction. It wasn't so much people expected more, but that HBO didn't deliver what they could have. On one positive though, I will say that shortened cast this series, regardless of how they did it, means they can focus more on individual characters and build them up a little more, which was one of the main issues last series.
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mau
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Post by mau on Apr 30, 2016 17:49:57 GMT
Casual fans didn't like the SS. I don't remember that anyone hated Doran's and Ellaria's scene in E2.
And I said that I think that the SS are the only problem in Dorne, they are the reason why internet-fans hate Dorne.
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Post by Mecha-StannisForever on Apr 30, 2016 18:11:49 GMT
Casual fans didn't like the SS. I don't remember that anyone hated Doran's and Ellaria's scene in E2. And I said that I think that the SS are the only problem in Dorne, they are the reason why internet-fans hate Dorne.
Hate to be 'that' guy, but virtually every fan is in the internet these days. I'd say it's the story in general tbh.
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Post by Nezzer on Apr 30, 2016 18:19:11 GMT
They really did exolain why the guards did nothing. Ellaria said Doran's own people hate him at the same time they were showing the guards. Sure, but we only got to know about that in that same moment. It wasn't established before the deed and there was no indication whatsoever that they disliked Doran. Is it an issue to me? No. Could it be better? I think so. People just decided to hate Dorne even before S5 aired for some reason, and everything they talk on the internet is one not-so-great fight scene and one bad line. I think that SS are the only problem in Dorne, they are the reason why internet-fans hate Dorne. Everything else is fine for me. I really like Ellaria and Indira Varma and I think every scene with her was very good. I liked Doran's death scene and I think Ellaria's speech was very powerful. I think every scene is a prison with SS was ok. D&D and HBO made a big mistake because they hyped SS so much for no reason before S5. I think their strategy with Euron is much better and I think the reaction to Euron will be much better because people don't have such high expectations. I agree, I never had a problem with Doran, Areo and Trystane, just with the Sand Snakes and the lack of Arianne. Stiil, even without Arianne, if they had stuck with the original Queenmaker plot things could've been much better. It's not really the acting that makes it bad, but the writing, trying to sell the Sand Snakes as this small team of strong female warriors who each have a different fighting style and seek vengeance as their ultimate goal. The idea itself is already cheesy and silly, the execution couldn't've been much better.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 18:59:54 GMT
TBH the main thing that I think would have made all of the Sand Snakes and Ellaria much much better is not anything to do with the scripts or general characterization: it has to do with believing their motives. And that is both a directing and an acting problem.
We NEVER got any sense they were mourning. That they were SAD. And that was is supposed to be their primary motive for everything they are doing. If there was a sense of mourning, everything would be more believable.
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Post by Nezzer on Apr 30, 2016 19:04:40 GMT
TBH the main thing that I think would have made all of the Sand Snakes and Ellaria much much better is not anything to do with the scripts or general characterization: it has to do with believing their motives. And that is both a directing and an acting problem. We NEVER got any sense they were mourning. That they were SAD. And that was is supposed to be their primary motive for everything they are doing. If there was a sense of mourning, everything would be more believable. Yeah, if only they had added any depth to their characters... Vengeance is the only facet of their personalities we got to see, one of the reasons why they are such a charicature.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2016 6:30:59 GMT
So to continue with the original spirit of the thread....
Problem: Oberyn would hate everything his daughters and lover are doing.
Framing: Yes, he probably would. We think. But Ellaria never said little girls were not hurt in Dorne, Oberyn did. And She was not present when he said that to Cersei although she was there at the tense veiled insults and threats exchange at Joffrey's wedding of course. So since everything else in that conversation was a threat or insult, maybe the exchange was even what gave her the idea to go after Cersei's daughter and it didn't occur to her that part was sincere on Oberyn's part. The confusion, if not for Oberyn's later conversation with Cersei, would be completely understandable.
Basically I have no way to rationalize everyone wanting revenge for Oberyn, since his death was pretty much his own damned fault and Ellaria knows it. I guess she is just a lady in denial, who wants to blame the Lannisters for everything that ever went wrong ever.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2016 7:09:45 GMT
A bit of speculation to add to this discussion:
I have been wondering this week if in the show there will be a pre-existing off-screen alliance between Ellaria and Olenna revealed in the near future. It would make a lot of sense, and a Dorne-Highgarden alliance in the books is a possibility that has been hinted at (alongside mentions of Dorne/Reach rivalry of course). Oberyn was said to be on good terms with Willas, exchanging frequent correspondence.
Now that the Tyrell-Lannister split is well on its way, and in the show at least, Marge is clearly set up as the YMBQ, the Tyrells having played some indirect role in Myrcella's death would very much fit; Cersei held Myrcella dear. It would also explain why Dorne needed to be rushed: the alliance between the Sand Snakes and Olenna would need to be established in order for it to play out this season as part of the KL intrigue.
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