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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 22:11:43 GMT
So "The Red Woman" in 6x01 was a massive reveal about Melisandre's true indentity which some fans had theorized about and GRRM had confirmed at one point in an interview. But for most show viewers it probably came as a complete shock. But we were left with no details and lots of questions. Who is she really? How does she do the glamour (is it the ruby or something else)? What does this mean going forward - is she 'giving up' and lost her faith? Give me your best theory (or theories you've read) as to who Melisandre really is and what's going on with her now!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 22:16:53 GMT
I was waiting for this thread!
The most common ones seem to be that she is or is somehow related to Shiera Seastar.
I really really really hope that the show will reveal her true identity.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 22:30:56 GMT
I was waiting for this thread! The most common ones seem to be that she is or is somehow related to Shiera Seastar. I really really really hope that the show will reveal her true identity. I know of the Shiera Seastar theories but not all the details. Hopefully someone will fill me in. I knew that Bloodraven was her lover but there's little concrete evidence they had any children, is there? The only bit I think was 'blood magic' were the rumors of how she stayed young looking. I am more curious about the background we do know of Melisandre such as being from Asshai, a slave named "Melony" and being bought by the Red God temple as a girl. How would all of that play into her motives today? Assuming she's hundreds of years old now, we have to wonder on her motivations and how long she's been planning this in Westeros or how long ago she started having her visions ... and why Stannis? |
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Post by freeparking on Apr 25, 2016 22:31:36 GMT
I don't really think Mel is anyone important from history. Just a slave that the Red Temple purchased long ago. She has lived so long and seen so much that it gives a lot more weight to her thoughts and actions.
As for how the glamour works, in the books Mance takes off a piece of Rattleshirt's outfit and she says that it is best if he keeps it on. The glamour still seems to work, but it is not as effective as when he is wearing the bones. I think this is the same as with Mel's ruby. Keeping it closer to her makes the glamour stronger. Also, since Mel's faith is shaken now and she is cold, I suspect her lack of faith (or maybe Jon's death) is reducing her powers.
I just think it means she is questioning everything, particularly herself, which of course leads her to the same place (emotionally) Thoros was when he brought Beric back.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 22:34:37 GMT
I don't really think Mel is anyone important from history. Just a slave that the Red Temple purchased long ago. She has lived so long and seen so much that it gives a lot more weight to her thoughts and actions. As for how the glamour works, in the books Mance takes off a piece of Rattleshirt's outfit and she says that it is best if he keeps it on. The glamour still seems to work, but it is not as effective as when he is wearing the bones. I think this is the same as with Mel's ruby. Keeping it closer to her makes the glamour stronger. Also, since Mel's faith is shaken now and she is cold, I suspect her lack of faith (or maybe Jon's death) is reducing her powers. I just think it means she is questioning everything, particularly herself, which of course leads her to the same place (emotionally) Thoros was when he brought Beric back.I've seen a few people mentioning this and it intrigues me. I personally don't know what to think yet which is why I've started the topic to hear everyone's take on it. The parallel to Thoros is interesting and makes sense. She was shocked when she saw Beric and questioned Thoros sharply. She could not believe such a 'lowly' priest of no special importance like Thoros could have done what he did. Had this never occurred before? Had Melisandre in all her hundreds of years never seen it done? |
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Post by boojam on Apr 25, 2016 22:58:17 GMT
Say anyone see that news report that , that is Carice's morphed face on a body double?
Man that's better than the Walk of Shame last season.
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Post by freeparking on Apr 25, 2016 23:10:09 GMT
I don't really think Mel is anyone important from history. Just a slave that the Red Temple purchased long ago. She has lived so long and seen so much that it gives a lot more weight to her thoughts and actions. As for how the glamour works, in the books Mance takes off a piece of Rattleshirt's outfit and she says that it is best if he keeps it on. The glamour still seems to work, but it is not as effective as when he is wearing the bones. I think this is the same as with Mel's ruby. Keeping it closer to her makes the glamour stronger. Also, since Mel's faith is shaken now and she is cold, I suspect her lack of faith (or maybe Jon's death) is reducing her powers. I just think it means she is questioning everything, particularly herself, which of course leads her to the same place (emotionally) Thoros was when he brought Beric back.I've seen a few people mentioning this and it intrigues me. I personally don't know what to think yet which is why I've started the topic to hear everyone's take on it. The parallel to Thoros is interesting and makes sense. She was shocked when she saw Beric and questioned Thoros sharply. She could not believe such a 'lowly' priest of no special importance like Thoros could have done what he did. Had this never occurred before? Had Melisandre in all her hundreds of years never seen it done? Perhaps it is something that only powerful followers of the Lord of Light can do? From Mel's point of view when meeting Thoros "how can he, someone who failed to convert Robert Baratheon, bring someone back when even I, a super devoted priest, cannot do that?" What a better way to make her even more of a true believer than by having her resurrect Jon Snow? It might also mean that she will rely less on tricks to get things done in the future. |
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Post by mandzipop on Apr 25, 2016 23:59:35 GMT
I posted this in the general speculation thread We've seen the trailer where she says everything she saw in the flames was a lie. That ties into episode 2 because she is still cold and was wearing fur in that scene. By episode 5 she is no longer in furs as there was a still of her leaving Castle Black with at least 2 other people. This suggests she has her faith back. One of those people is carrying Longclaw. Something must trigger her faith to be restored. I'm thinking Ser Davos talks her into trying to do something out of desperation, not to resurrect Jon, but to help them get out of the room. Mel prays to the Lord of Light and Jon rises. Whoever Mel is, it sounds like show Mel is older than Bloodraven. Carice put rumours out that she is 400 years old. That predates Bloodraven. My guess is that she was taken in by the Red Priests as a child whilst being either sold off for slavery or prostitution by a desperate mother with nothing. If she is as old as 400 she predates the doom of Valyria. The big question for me is, is this relevant for the show? Is it a nice to know or a need to know. I'm guessing it is a need to know. They could have made her ugly to show that it was a glamour and that she was losing her faith, but instead they made her really old. So my question isn't yet who is she. It is why have they made her so old. There has to be a reason for it. End of essay. I got a bit carried away. Mel is my favourite character as I find her interesting. Not because she is nice. |
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Post by archiechvyalthan on Apr 26, 2016 0:27:53 GMT
After watching the episode, I'm more convinced than ever that there was never any glamour involved. As far as I understand it, a glamour is akin to plastic surgery - it can make you look like someone else or it can make you look younger, but it can't give you actual youthful vigor and energy. For the entirety of the series, Mel looks and acts energetically, youthful. It's not just that she has a young body - she moves, she walks, she thinks with the agility of a young person. I believe it is literally her own inner powers and the strength of her faith that keeps her this way, not some ruby or potions. But it's also a fact she is hundreds of years old, so when her faith dissolves and her spirit breaks, the weight of the years simply catches up to her. And then she really needs magical assistance to keep some semblance of youth. I also don't think the stripping before going to bed is a ritual she does every night. In fact, since Mel has probably never had a crisis of faith before, this may be the first time ever she has seen herself like this. She does not actually think of herself as an old hag. So the ancient crone we see at the end of this episode is not the "real" Melisandre imo. It's no more or less real than the Melisandre we've seen all along. They are both sides of the same character, none being truer than the other. It's just visual evidence of her chronological age and how her faith is finally shattered - there's no fire sustaining her anymore. Sorry for the length  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 0:36:26 GMT
Say anyone see that news report that , that is Carice's morphed face on a body double? Man that's better than the Walk of Shame last season. I wondered if that's how they did it (same trick with Lena) ... because that body seemed pretty damn authentic looking especially when she feebly got into bed. Carice would have had a harder time making that look realistic with some sort of body suit on. I thought it was a real old woman body double. Man that is one seriously brave old lady! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 0:45:35 GMT
I posted this in the general speculation thread We've seen the trailer where she says everything she saw in the flames was a lie. That ties into episode 2 because she is still cold and was wearing fur in that scene. By episode 5 she is no longer in furs as there was a still of her leaving Castle Black with at least 2 other people. This suggests she has her faith back. One of those people is carrying Longclaw. Something must trigger her faith to be restored. I'm thinking Ser Davos talks her into trying to do something out of desperation, not to resurrect Jon, but to help them get out of the room. Mel prays to the Lord of Light and Jon rises. Whoever Mel is, it sounds like show Mel is older than Bloodraven. Carice put rumours out that she is 400 years old. That predates Bloodraven. My guess is that she was taken in by the Red Priests as a child whilst being either sold off for slavery or prostitution by a desperate mother with nothing. If she is as old as 400 she predates the doom of Valyria. The big question for me is, is this relevant for the show? Is it a nice to know or a need to know. I'm guessing it is a need to know. They could have made her ugly to show that it was a glamour and that she was losing her faith, but instead they made her really old. So my question isn't yet who is she. It is why have they made her so old. There has to be a reason for it. End of essay. I got a bit carried away. Mel is my favourite character as I find her interesting. Not because she is nice. You guys should not apologize for the essays because if you haven't noticed I can write some seriously long ones. I highlighted those two key points in your essay because I think they definitely deserve some thought and speculation - good evidence from what we've seen of her in photos and trailers. She goes from cold and weak to strong and warm again so it must have something to do with the resurrection. I have a long essay post about an alternative theory where Melisandre isn't the one to resurrect Jon. The theory is solid for thematic reasons (Jon's heritage) but doesn't hold up so well against logistical evidence pointing to Melisandre. I thought maybe there's a chance she'll fail and that will be part of the twist... her failure that ultimately leads to him coming back anyways for other reasons related to Melisandre's magic. Accidentally it works later. I do agree there must be an important reason for her extreme age otherwise they would have skipped it entirely. It has to be important enough to have considered two seasons back (if that's the same FX they referred to) and just now coming into play. It may not have anything to do with Jon Snow's resurrection but it may definitely have everything to do with the Others coming. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 0:51:36 GMT
After watching the episode, I'm more convinced than ever that there was never any glamour involved. As far as I understand it, a glamour is akin to plastic surgery - it can make you look like someone else or it can make you look younger, but it can't give you actual youthful vigor and energy. For the entirety of the series, Mel looks and acts energetically, youthful. It's not just that she has a young body - she moves, she walks, she thinks with the agility of a young person. I believe it is literally her own inner powers and the strength of her faith that keeps her this way, not some ruby or potions. But it's also a fact she is hundreds of years old, so when her faith dissolves and her spirit breaks, the weight of the years simply catches up to her. And then she really needs magical assistance to keep some semblance of youth. I also don't think the stripping before going to bed is a ritual she does every night. In fact, since Mel has probably never had a crisis of faith before, this may be the first time ever she has seen herself like this. She does not actually think of herself as an old hag. So the ancient crone we see at the end of this episode is not the "real" Melisandre imo. It's no more or less real than the Melisandre we've seen all along. They are both sides of the same character, none being truer than the other. It's just visual evidence of her chronological age and how her faith is finally shattered - there's no fire sustaining her anymore. Sorry for the length You stop apologizing too, haha.  I loved your take on the reason her youth is not a glamour and is instead just some part of her real self via the magical powers she's either inherited or been bestowed upon by her God. She's probably been that way so long she almost forgets her true appearance. I also agree she most likely never takes her appearance off or maybe even couldn't - who knows. Maybe it was a permanent thing until now and she sensed it was happening... But the thing that gets me is how they timed this now... just before everything's about to go down with Jon and the Night's Watch and everyone else there. Why? It definitely has to have some significance to resurrecting Jon. They said they wanted to do some serious special effect (prosthesis) back in Season 4... but if that was Mel, why do it back then? They didn't and I'm guessing they decided it wasn't necessary to tell her story best then and would be more important now, when the impact would mean the most. It could have really helped people believe her about Stannis though... way back when. |
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Post by archiechvyalthan on Apr 26, 2016 1:06:44 GMT
After watching the episode, I'm more convinced than ever that there was never any glamour involved. As far as I understand it, a glamour is akin to plastic surgery - it can make you look like someone else or it can make you look younger, but it can't give you actual youthful vigor and energy. For the entirety of the series, Mel looks and acts energetically, youthful. It's not just that she has a young body - she moves, she walks, she thinks with the agility of a young person. I believe it is literally her own inner powers and the strength of her faith that keeps her this way, not some ruby or potions. But it's also a fact she is hundreds of years old, so when her faith dissolves and her spirit breaks, the weight of the years simply catches up to her. And then she really needs magical assistance to keep some semblance of youth. I also don't think the stripping before going to bed is a ritual she does every night. In fact, since Mel has probably never had a crisis of faith before, this may be the first time ever she has seen herself like this. She does not actually think of herself as an old hag. So the ancient crone we see at the end of this episode is not the "real" Melisandre imo. It's no more or less real than the Melisandre we've seen all along. They are both sides of the same character, none being truer than the other. It's just visual evidence of her chronological age and how her faith is finally shattered - there's no fire sustaining her anymore. Sorry for the length You stop apologizing too, haha. I loved your take on the reason her youth is not a glamour and is instead just some part of her real self via the magical powers she's either inherited or been bestowed upon by her God. She's probably been that way so long she almost forgets her true appearance. I also agree she most likely never takes her appearance off or maybe even couldn't - who knows. Maybe it was a permanent thing until now and she sensed it was happening... But the thing that gets me is how they timed this now... just before everything's about to go down with Jon and the Night's Watch and everyone else there. Why? It definitely has to have some significance to resurrecting Jon. They said they wanted to do some serious special effect (prosthesis) back in Season 4... but if that was Mel, why do it back then? They didn't and I'm guessing they decided it wasn't necessary to tell her story best then and would be more important now, when the impact would mean the most. It could have really helped people believe her about Stannis though... way back when. I agree that the timing has been well thought out. But this is also true of most characters on the show: sooner or later, they are shown the follies of their way. It's Mel's turn now. She could parallel Thoros and resurrect Jon in her weakest moment. But it will be interesting to see what happens even if she manages to pull that off. Will she happily burn everyone on her way as usual? Will she blindly trust in this god that misled her so terribly? Or will she become more pragmatic (more human) in her beliefs? The Red God religion is all the rage all over Planetos, so it would be interesting if one of its most powerful members started to question it. She might even start questioning if the white walkers are the real enemy. It really opens a lot of possibilities going forward. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 7:59:25 GMT
I was waiting for this thread! The most common ones seem to be that she is or is somehow related to Shiera Seastar. I really really really hope that the show will reveal her true identity. I know of the Shiera Seastar theories but not all the details. Hopefully someone will fill me in. I knew that Bloodraven was her lover but there's little concrete evidence they had any children, is there? The only bit I think was 'blood magic' were the rumors of how she stayed young looking. I am more curious about the background we do know of Melisandre such as being from Asshai, a slave named "Melony" and being bought by the Red God temple as a girl. How would all of that play into her motives today? Assuming she's hundreds of years old now, we have to wonder on her motivations and how long she's been planning this in Westeros or how long ago she started having her visions ... and why Stannis? There's something I found. Maybe we're digging this too deep. She might be just an ancient ex-slave working for R'Hllor. Maybe her motivations for the past few hundred years has been to serve the Red God and find Azor Ahai and now she feels completely lost. Mel targeting Westeros backs the Seastar theory, but I'm not too convinced about that.. OzzyMan just speculated that maybe she just gave some years of her life to Jon. Tinfoil, but I can see it happening. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 8:57:25 GMT
I'm scratching my head a bit because I can't remember where this 400 year old thing came from. This can't be confirmed right? Why isn't it likely that Mel is just a normal old woman, like 90 years old?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 9:04:04 GMT
I'm scratching my head a bit because I can't remember where this 400 year old thing came from. This can't be confirmed right? Why isn't it likely that Mel is just a normal old woman, like 90 years old? The 400 years old bit of info first came from the guy who played Maester Cressen. He asked Carice during the shooting of the scene how she could survive the poison and he couldn't and she apparently told him, "I'm 400 years old." Carice has in the meantime said in interviews that the character is "at least 100 years old". And D and D in the Inside the Episode says that GrrM told them early on that she's "centuries" old. Jeremy Podeswa who directed 601 said that when they were working on the episode they didn't go quite as old as 400 in their design of the prosthetics being used because obviously there's no real life reference to refer to for that. So what they ended up going with for her look was something with a kind of a real life basis to it (Mel's body in the scene is that of an elderly body double while her face is Carice's in six hours worth of makeup). |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 9:44:31 GMT
I'm scratching my head a bit because I can't remember where this 400 year old thing came from. This can't be confirmed right? Why isn't it likely that Mel is just a normal old woman, like 90 years old? The 400 years old bit of info first came from the guy who played Maester Cressen. He asked Carice during the shooting of the scene how she could survive the poison and he couldn't and she apparently told him, "I'm 400 years old." Carice has in the meantime said in interviews that the character is "at least 100 years old". And D and D in the Inside the Episode says that GrrM told them early on that she's "centuries" old. Jeremy Podeswa who directed 601 said that when they were working on the episode they didn't go quite as old as 400 in their design of the prosthetics being used because obviously there's no real life reference to refer to for that. So what they ended up going with for her look was something with a kind of a real life basis to it (Mel's body in the scene is that of an elderly body double while her face is Carice's in six hours worth of makeup). Ha thanks wikipedia |
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Post by kingeomer on Apr 26, 2016 12:17:53 GMT
I do think all of this is triggered by her having a crisis of faith. I don't want her to resurrect Jon, I want that to be the job of Bran/Bloodraven...I feel like Jon should be resurrected with the magic in the North, not the Red God.
But it's most likely going to her somehow. She's always been very confident in her beliefs and that she was doing the right thing, following the flames and the Red God and what she thought they were telling her. Now she knows she was wrong about Stannis (costing him, his wife and his daughter their lives) and might be wrong about Jon.
Something has to restore her faith. I can't see her plot being abandoning the Red God, so I will say it's Jon resurrection that does it. My curiosity though, why did they take Jon's body back to the room and lock themselves in there? Did Davos say she could possibly save him (my sound went out early in the episode...so I might have missed why they didn't burn Jon's body)? I know Davos had the line he's seen what she can do.
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Post by TheMadQueen on Apr 26, 2016 13:53:45 GMT
Essay incoming  I am really in two minds about Melisandre's past. Part of me likes the theory of her being Shiera Seastar and Bloodraven's lovechild. But then, part of me genuinely believes she's just a powerful slave girl. Melisandre has said that her mother was a slave, so naturally, Mel was born one as well. She was sold to a Red Temple. There are several in Essos. Which one? And when did she live in Asshai? I can't find anything mentioning a Temple in Asshai, so when/why was she there? Was she born there? Or did she travel there after becoming a priestess? Melony was perhaps a powerful sorceress before she ever became a priestess. Maybe she was a temple prosititute, but once displayed some magical prowess, and they taught her the ways of being a priestess? Her witchcraft seems different than anything other Red Priests have done. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 18:44:55 GMT
She could parallel Thoros and resurrect Jon in her weakest moment. But it will be interesting to see what happens even if she manages to pull that off. Will she happily burn everyone on her way as usual? Will she blindly trust in this god that misled her so terribly? Or will she become more pragmatic (more human) in her beliefs? The Red God religion is all the rage all over Planetos, so it would be interesting if one of its most powerful members started to question it. She might even start questioning if the white walkers are the real enemy. It really opens a lot of possibilities going forward. There does seem to be some parallel with Thoros now that she's 'lost' and doubting herself and deeply troubled or in trouble, I'm not sure which it is since they left it on a cliffhanger with her getting into bed like that. Lots of people wondered if she was just laying down to give up and die but we all know there's still fight left in Mel, we just don't know yet how she gets her groove back. OzzyMan just speculated that maybe she just gave some years of her life to Jon. Tinfoil, but I can see it happening. That's a really interesting twist on it and I think I read someone in our group suggest that in the general speculation thread. Maybe her magic grows weak if she gives some of it to Jon - but we didn't see her do anything yet so I'm not sure that lines up very well right now anyways... I mean, she went in the room, looked at him, remarked she had seen him fighting at Winterfell (that's new info isn't it?) and then she touched his cheek with the back of her hand as if to see how cold he was ... was that one touch enough to transfer power from herself to him? If it was, they sure didn't make much ado about it did they? I do think all of this is triggered by her having a crisis of faith. I don't want her to resurrect Jon, I want that to be the job of Bran/Bloodraven...I feel like Jon should be resurrected with the magic in the North, not the Red God. I'm with you on wishing there was some other way for him to come back and that Melisandre was a red herring at least for the resurrection part. I think she may play an important role in the fight against the Others though. I personally would like to see a combination of Ice and Fire both be in play for Jon since he may be the 'song' ... or not. I don't really know anymore! Melony was perhaps a powerful sorceress before she ever became a priestess. Maybe she was a temple prosititute, but once displayed some magical prowess, and they taught her the ways of being a priestess? Her witchcraft seems different than anything other Red Priests have done. She could have been any of those things or none of them. It could all be a lie, as she's confessing to Davos (I think) soon in an upcoming episode... But I agree, her magical powers are not typical R'hllor type magic. It's more sorcery and shadowbinding with a good dose of blood magic mixed in. Those are all things we've seen from magical users in Essos... the warlocks, Mirri Maz Duur the witch, even Dany herself used Blood Magic of some sort when she burned the witch on Drogo's funeral pyre. The leeches and king's blood stuff from Melisandre seems more like blood magic to me. |
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