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Post by Enid on Apr 26, 2016 17:38:08 GMT
The show makes it look like the only region that requires obedience from other noble houses to be ruled and has power struggles is the North (and the Riverlands to a certain extent). The Reach, the Vale, the Stormlands, the West and Dorne apparently have no families that rival their wardens in wealth or influence or power, no old rivalries or feuds, so it wouldn't surprise me if the dornish families just accept what Ellaria did and let her rule. I mean, I can believe the West has not forgotten about Castamere, and I understand that the show can't be as complex as the books, but I still miss those kind of details because they really add a lot of realism to the political situation of Westeros. The whole Lords Declarant scene from 4x08 was the Lords of the Vale challenging LF's rule. I don't remember what happened to Stormlands in the books after Stannis sailed north. IIRC they were investigating Lysa's death, not challenging LF per se, and even then, their problem was with Littlefinger, a person they don't know and don't trust, being in charge of the Arryn heir. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 17:40:24 GMT
The show makes it look like the only region that requires obedience from other noble houses to be ruled and has power struggles is the North (and the Riverlands to a certain extent). The Reach, the Vale, the Stormlands, the West and Dorne apparently have no families that rival their wardens in wealth or influence or power, no old rivalries or feuds, so it wouldn't surprise me if the dornish families just accept what Ellaria did and let her rule. I mean, I can believe the West has not forgotten about Castamere, and I understand that the show can't be as complex as the books, but I still miss those kind of details because they really add a lot of realism to the political situation of Westeros. The whole Lords Declarant scene from 4x08 was the Lords of the Vale challenging LF's rule. I don't remember what happened to Stormlands in the books after Stannis sailed north. FAegon invades.. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 17:44:01 GMT
The whole Lords Declarant scene from 4x08 was the Lords of the Vale challenging LF's rule. I don't remember what happened to Stormlands in the books after Stannis sailed north. FAegon invades.. Oh, now I remember. Stannis leaves someone to hold Storm's End, and the Tyrell army besieges it. |
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Post by mattpeto on Apr 26, 2016 17:44:05 GMT
I don't remember the exact comment (believe it was from the S5 blu-ray), but Dorne was a late minute addition in Season 5 pre-production. I'm guessing that the showrunners got "Obern-fat" overnight during the actual S4 run and thought it would be great to bring Dorne more into the forefront. While, it's possible that Arianne was a character at some point, they probably never planned to bring Jon C and young Griff. Instead of casting Arianne, they just decided to use Indira Varma to merge the role especially with the abbreviated storyline (no fAegon adaption) So, I think 601 was a clever way to wrap up the bullshit down there. It almost verified the fans' feelings about the show's major weakness (S5-Dorne) and purged it out of its misery, while keeping around Varma for what's coming next. I just wished we would have lost a Sand Snake or two during the little rebellion. But, now I'm kind of excited about what's coming next in Dorne for a change... They should have actually placed time and actual effort into the Dorne scripts and after that they should consider about actually filming it. Seemed like a rushed, lazy and weak story line in overall. Well, not really clever, a bit lazy. Make Ellaria and SS try to crown Myrcella -> she dies somehow -> Lannisters are pissed, Doran reveals Fire and Blood -> Dorne joins team Dany. This could have all been done with the same amount of screen time than the mess in season 5. Lazy and shallow writing. They should have consulted George on this one.
Avenging Oberyn by killing all of his family? Makes zero sense at all.Not to mention killing Dorne's ruler without a suitable replacement? Yeah, I'm sure the Lannisters and Tyrells are going to be shaking in their boots.  I wish D&D would comment on why they chose to handle Dorne that way, but I think they know they fucked up. If their intention was to completely erase Dorne, they STILL went about it the wrong way. Having Doran execute Ellaria and the Sham Snakes for treason would've been a better way to end Dorne. I hate to say it, but I feel like D&D thought the GA would eat up their faux feminism here because it's women doing the killing. But if the women are still bad characters, no one will care. Every single GA person I know hated Dorne. They either wanted more of Doran, or no Dorne at all. Exactly. I'm sure that house Yronwood and Dayne wouldn't be too pleased of the death of the last Martells. But I guess the show won't address the other noble houses, but instead claim that everyone is fine in someone who doesn't even have Martell blood in her veins taking over the land. Doran offing Ellaria & SS and then just taking Dany's side would have been so much better.. or then he could actually congratulate them and reveal that he has been working with Dany all along. But hooray shock value. Exactly, were D&D so naive that they thought that they could slip away with it with some magical girl power? Yea but family civil wars happens all over Westeros. Consider Renly, Greyjoys, Targeryans. The SS are Oberyn's daughters. Doran is his brother and Trystane is his nephew. Ellaria is done waiting for Doran to get balls and do something. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 17:47:59 GMT
The show makes it look like the only region that requires obedience from other noble houses to be ruled and has power struggles is the North (and the Riverlands to a certain extent). The Reach, the Vale, the Stormlands, the West and Dorne apparently have no families that rival their wardens in wealth or influence or power, no old rivalries or feuds, so it wouldn't surprise me if the dornish families just accept what Ellaria did and let her rule. I mean, I can believe the West has not forgotten about Castamere, and I understand that the show can't be as complex as the books, but I still miss those kind of details because they really add a lot of realism to the political situation of Westeros. Very good points. The power struggle in the North has been a hot topic for already at least 2 seasons, but the weird thing is, we get to see very little proof that these lords even exist. The politics of Riverlands will be another topic again, perhaps they can find room for a small Bracken vs Blackwood mention, just to add more depth to the country. Royce was challenging LF, but ended up being played quite easily. We were actually shown noble Vale houses. West is in tight Lannister control in the books as well, no ones gonna challenge their position quite yet. Same goes to the Reach, the Florents are the only ones who have appeared and then we'll get some Tarly's this season. Dorne's COMPLETE lack of noble houses (the Dornish host in S4 doesn't count) makes me feel like Dorne has a population of 100. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 17:50:58 GMT
Oh, now I remember. Stannis leaves someone to hold Storm's End, and the Tyrell army besieges it. Tyrell army besieges Dragonstone and not Storm's End? They should have actually placed time and actual effort into the Dorne scripts and after that they should consider about actually filming it. Seemed like a rushed, lazy and weak story line in overall. Well, not really clever, a bit lazy. Make Ellaria and SS try to crown Myrcella -> she dies somehow -> Lannisters are pissed, Doran reveals Fire and Blood -> Dorne joins team Dany. This could have all been done with the same amount of screen time than the mess in season 5. Lazy and shallow writing. They should have consulted George on this one.
Avenging Oberyn by killing all of his family? Makes zero sense at all.Exactly. I'm sure that house Yronwood and Dayne wouldn't be too pleased of the death of the last Martells. But I guess the show won't address the other noble houses, but instead claim that everyone is fine in someone who doesn't even have Martell blood in her veins taking over the land. Doran offing Ellaria & SS and then just taking Dany's side would have been so much better.. or then he could actually congratulate them and reveal that he has been working with Dany all along. But hooray shock value. Exactly, were D&D so naive that they thought that they could slip away with it with some magical girl power? Yea but family civil wars happens all over Westeros. Consider Renly, Greyjoys, Targeryans. The SS are Oberyn's daughters. Doran is his brother and Trystane is his nephew. Ellaria is done waiting for Doran to get balls and do something. Very true, but Ellaria and co are now kinslayers and no one would support them after that. (Stannis is a kinslayer, but a majority of his followers never knew that). Yes, they are Oberyn's daughters but it's still stupid to go on a killing rampage to slay the brother of the guy you want to avenge. Surely good old Oberyn is rolling in his grave. |
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Post by mau on Apr 26, 2016 17:59:30 GMT
The show makes it look like the only region that requires obedience from other noble houses to be ruled and has power struggles is the North (and the Riverlands to a certain extent). The Reach, the Vale, the Stormlands, the West and Dorne apparently have no families that rival their wardens in wealth or influence or power, no old rivalries or feuds, so it wouldn't surprise me if the dornish families just accept what Ellaria did and let her rule. I mean, I can believe the West has not forgotten about Castamere, and I understand that the show can't be as complex as the books, but I still miss those kind of details because they really add a lot of realism to the political situation of Westeros. We will have Tarllys this year. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 18:02:32 GMT
Oh, now I remember. Stannis leaves someone to hold Storm's End, and the Tyrell army besieges it. Tyrell army besieges Dragonstone and not Storm's End? Yea but family civil wars happens all over Westeros. Consider Renly, Greyjoys, Targeryans. The SS are Oberyn's daughters. Doran is his brother and Trystane is his nephew. Ellaria is done waiting for Doran to get balls and do something. Very true, but Ellaria and co are now kinslayers and no one would support them after that. (Stannis is a kinslayer, but a majority of his followers never knew that). Yes, they are Oberyn's daughters but it's still stupid to go on a killing rampage to slay the brother of the guy you want to avenge. Surely good old Oberyn is rolling in his grave. Even fucking Roose Bolton doesn't want to kill his son. The curse of kinslaying is the only thing why he didn't kill Rams after the Domeric incident. I checked the wiki, the Tyrells do besiege Storm's End. Loras rushes to take Dragonstone, and apparently dies. Mace holds siege to Storm's End until he hears about Marg's arrest. |
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Post by Enid on Apr 26, 2016 18:12:59 GMT
The show makes it look like the only region that requires obedience from other noble houses to be ruled and has power struggles is the North (and the Riverlands to a certain extent). The Reach, the Vale, the Stormlands, the West and Dorne apparently have no families that rival their wardens in wealth or influence or power, no old rivalries or feuds, so it wouldn't surprise me if the dornish families just accept what Ellaria did and let her rule. I mean, I can believe the West has not forgotten about Castamere, and I understand that the show can't be as complex as the books, but I still miss those kind of details because they really add a lot of realism to the political situation of Westeros. We will have Tarllys this year. When I say the show makes it look like the lord paramount have no trouble ruling the other noble houses I meant just that, not that there are no other noble houses or that they won't ever appear on screen. Adding the Tarlys to the show doesn't mean they will defy the Tyrells. And please tag the spoilers. |
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Post by Enid on Apr 26, 2016 18:17:47 GMT
Yea but family civil wars happens all over Westeros. Consider Renly, Greyjoys, Targeryans. The SS are Oberyn's daughters. Doran is his brother and Trystane is his nephew. Ellaria is done waiting for Doran to get balls and do something. Very true, but Ellaria and co are now kinslayers and no one would support them after that. (Stannis is a kinslayer, but a majority of his followers never knew that). Yes, they are Oberyn's daughters but it's still stupid to go on a killing rampage to slay the brother of the guy you want to avenge. Surely good old Oberyn is rolling in his grave. Yeah, they guy that got into a trial by combat that didn't concern him at all just so he could fight his sister's killer more than ten years after the fact would hate Ellaria and the Sand Snakes for what they have done, and one of the silliest parts of the whole dornish mess is that Ellaria and co. don't seem to see it. |
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Post by day dreamer on Apr 26, 2016 19:22:05 GMT
Even fucking Roose Bolton doesn't want to kill his son. I didn't even think of that comparison. This makes it even worse.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 10:22:17 GMT
Good find by @konradsmith. BryndenBFish defends the 6x01 Dorne plot twist. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4gjr7l/spoilers_everything_the_prince_the_watcher_and/It makes a bit more sense, but the execution of it was quite terrible.
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Post by mattpeto on Apr 27, 2016 12:08:24 GMT
Good find by @konradsmith . BryndenBFish defends the 6x01 Dorne plot twist. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4gjr7l/spoilers_everything_the_prince_the_watcher_and/It makes a bit more sense, but the execution of it was quite terrible. I wish we would recruit BryndenBFish to our boards. |
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Post by Admin on Apr 27, 2016 12:15:40 GMT
Good find by @konradsmith . BryndenBFish defends the 6x01 Dorne plot twist. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4gjr7l/spoilers_everything_the_prince_the_watcher_and/It makes a bit more sense, but the execution of it was quite terrible. I wish we would recruit BryndenBFish to our boards. While I question the sanity of anyone defending this plot any of u guys can drop a link if u want to recruit someone. U dont need special equipment to recruit  |
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 27, 2016 13:04:33 GMT
He's not really defending the storyline (I think he levies the same complaints against it that most do) but he's trying to make the point that it's very possible that the SS's wipe out these characters in the books as well (under different circumstances but still...)
I have never really had an issue with the logic of the storyline, just the execution.
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Post by day dreamer on Apr 27, 2016 14:44:40 GMT
That's an interesting read, but even if the Sand Snakes kill Areo or try to kill Doran in the books, they at least have other Martells to fall back on. They didn't completely wipe out Oberyn's family like the Sham Snakes did in show. FWIW, I don't think Doran will die. I think this guy makes a good case for Areo though, but I'd rather Areo just kill everyone there because the show has tainted the book Sand Snakes (who I didn't really care about) now.  |
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Post by Mecha-StannisForever on Apr 27, 2016 15:08:18 GMT
Good find by @konradsmith . BryndenBFish defends the 6x01 Dorne plot twist. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4gjr7l/spoilers_everything_the_prince_the_watcher_and/It makes a bit more sense, but the execution of it was quite terrible. What he says makes sense, but the crux of a lot of arguments is that they completely ignore the fact that Doran had been masterminding a plan all along. Maybe Ellaria will find out, and the irony is she ruined Dorne's chance at revenge, that may be a redeeming factor. But honestly, they made Dorne so badly that I don't think anything will payoff big time, or at least big enough to change my perspective on this. I think it's just a case of D&D not liking the storyline, most of the material (FAegon, Arianne, Tystane) cut out and thus the remaining scraps were worthless. I still feel the sandsnkes were in it purely because they thought people would think "wow, Oberyn's daughters! They're so kwl". Newsflash, they really aren't. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 15:14:59 GMT
Good find by @konradsmith . BryndenBFish defends the 6x01 Dorne plot twist. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4gjr7l/spoilers_everything_the_prince_the_watcher_and/It makes a bit more sense, but the execution of it was quite terrible. What he says makes sense, but the crux of a lot of arguments is that they completely ignore the fact that Doran had been masterminding a plan all along. Maybe Ellaria will find out, and the irony is she ruined Dorne's chance at revenge, that may be a redeeming factor. But honestly, they made Dorne so badly that I don't think anything will payoff big time, or at least big enough to change my perspective on this. I think it's just a case of D&D not liking the storyline, most of the material (FAegon, Arianne, Tystane) cut out and thus the remaining scraps were worthless. I still feel the sandsnkes were in it purely because they thought people would think "wow, Oberyn's daughters! They're so kwl". Newsflash, they really aren't. This reminded me of the YouTube comments before Season 5. Person 1: Who are the girls in the trailer? Person 2: The Sand Snakes, Oberyn's daughters. Remember when Ned Stark died and his kids became badass?  Few months later Person 1: Yeah, about that... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 16:18:18 GMT
Good find by @konradsmith . BryndenBFish defends the 6x01 Dorne plot twist. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4gjr7l/spoilers_everything_the_prince_the_watcher_and/It makes a bit more sense, but the execution of it was quite terrible. I meant to comment on the other thread where konrad posted that but now I've lost track of all the threads. BryndenBFish has some very good logic in many of his arguments at times though I don't always agree with him. I respect his take on this and felt he wasn't really defending the plot choice so much as trying to make sense of it backed by evidence we have and potential plots to come anyways for the book. If you examine each point carefully, you do have to admit it works out even if the acting and execution of it on the show was poorly done. I was really struggling to understand it but now at least I sort of see where they were trying to go with it ... maybe! I'll be happy if the sandsnakes slowly fade away soon, but I have serious misgivings about it now that they turned up on that boat in King's Landing. I really don't want their involvement in anything - it just taints the immersion for me. I especially don't want them eventually allying with Daenerys.  |
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Post by day dreamer on Apr 27, 2016 16:40:46 GMT
Good find by @konradsmith . BryndenBFish defends the 6x01 Dorne plot twist. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4gjr7l/spoilers_everything_the_prince_the_watcher_and/It makes a bit more sense, but the execution of it was quite terrible. I especially don't want them eventually allying with Daenerys. 100% DO NOT WANT. That will be the worst. If we absolutely have to see Dorne again, I'd rather it be in the form of Varys showing up, saying Doran had a plan, and Ellaria and the sham snakes are all dumb bitches. |
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