Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 22:06:41 GMT
Spoilers all the way from S4 to S6x01 ahead. In S4 we were introduced to Oberyn Martell, a fiery Dornishman who came to King's Landing in search for justice. Soon the audiences fell in love with Oberyn and were excited to see Dorne in S5. But what happened in S5 was one of the weakest moments in the show's history. Poor writers, poor actors and a complete lack of any sense made everyone hate Dorne. They had failed to show Dorne's culture, politics and everything. In S5 Ellaria Sand, the paramour of the late Oberyn Martell schemes with 3 bastard daughters of Oberyn to bring the people who wronged them to justice. Understandable. By killing Myrcella and forcing the Lannisters to attack them? What a shitty plan. But the way the show executed was worse. These 3 heroines kick ass and try to kidnap Myrcella in broad daylight under the eyes of the Dornish Prince, the ruler of the region. They get arrested, including Jaime and Bronn (who came to rescue Myrcella, rather than request it from Doran, also a shit plan). We get horrible prison scenes with no real purpose. Then Doran forgives them all and releases everyone. He sends his son and heir to King's Landing with his wife-to-be Myrcella and looks to advance house Martell's position. Tyene then delivers the worst line on the show up to this day: "You want the good girl, but you need the bad pussy". Now,who the fuck would write something like that? Seriously, nearly all dialogue from the Sand snakes sounds like from a very bad porn film. Then Ellaria, twice pardoned poisons and murders Myrcella.. End of S5. After screwing up S5, did D&D press the panic button and suddenly they decide that Ellaria and co SLAUGHTER Doran, his bodyguard(most useless casting ever) and the heir of house Martell, Trystane? Effectively killing house Martell in the process. Why would they do this? They also reveal that the whole of Dorne loathes Doran and all the guards are supporting Ellaria? The captain of the guard Areo Hotah doesn't notice anything. We also don't get to see anything that would actually support the fact that "all the people of Dorne hate Doran". The scene had no foreshadowing whatsoever and feels like a rushed decision. If this was Ellaria's genius plan all along, why didn't they kill Jaime and Bronn as well? I simply can't understand the road that D&D decided to take. The mistakes they did, and instead of fixing them, fucking it up even more. How is this possible? I'm convinced that most members of this board, with zero experience in this business, would still write a better script for Dorne than D&D. Dorne drags the quality of the show down and it's a legit threat to GOT's position as one of the best TV-shows ever. So many ways this could have been done differently. Why would they choose this? Fantastic bits found all around the internet. " You killed Doran?
Yes
Because someone else killed his younger brother Oberyn?
Yes
And you were upset that he didn't immediately wage war against these people who are economically and military superior, several times over
Yes
And you are now wiping out the few surviving members of the family of the man you are trying to avenge
Yes
Tywin is probably laughing in the seven hells that one disposable grunt - The Mountain, has literally decimated an entire kingdom just by smashing a fucking head. "
Can someone explain that how can screw something so badly? How is it possible, that a show of this high quality, can produce something so out of place? Dorne doesn't even feel like it's a part of this show! Sorry for this lengthy rant, I'm just extremely frustrated..
|
|
mau
Grumpkin
Haters Gonna Hate
Posts: 346
|
Post by mau on Apr 25, 2016 22:46:23 GMT
It was not good, I liked Doran's death scene, but I don't think that Dorne drags the quality of the show down. Dorne is just there. Only super book fans care about that plot.
|
|
|
Post by King Tommen on Apr 25, 2016 23:11:26 GMT
They recognized that it wasn't really that good and course corrected this year by more or less wiping out the storyline in about 4 minutes so they can concentrate on the other stuff. That's a good thing.
Ellaria and the SS's are the component that they apparently need to connect with the Dany story so they've kept them around and they'll hang out off-screen until Dany gets to Westeros.
|
|
|
Post by freypies on Apr 25, 2016 23:24:08 GMT
From what I remember from interviews, D&D originally didn't want to go to Dorne in the first place. Cogman convinced them to send Jaime there. Now they are probably convinced that their original assessment was better, so (I think) they're going to eliminate this storyline as quickly as possible or make it an even smaller part of the story than it already is.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 23:56:31 GMT
you make a good point.
If the guards were all against Doran, and by extension Areo, then why would they follow his orders in s5 to firstly save myrcella, and then imprison the sandsnakes and ellaria? And why would Areo not notice the attitudes of the people of dorne and his guards and report this to doran?
|
|
mau
Grumpkin
Haters Gonna Hate
Posts: 346
|
Post by mau on Apr 26, 2016 0:39:10 GMT
You ask for too much. They just need this plot to end. They will maybe have 2 scenes in the rest of the season and that's it.
|
|
|
Post by King Tommen on Apr 26, 2016 0:46:47 GMT
you make a good point. If the guards were all against Doran, and by extension Areo, then why would they follow his orders in s5 to firstly save myrcella, and then imprison the sandsnakes and ellaria? And why would Areo not notice the attitudes of the people of dorne and his guards and report this to doran? Again, probably too much thought being devoted to this but I think the idea here is that Doran had begrudging loyalty from most last season but him doing things like letting Jaime take Myrcella back to KL and allowing Trystane to tag along (which opened him up to being a Lannister hostage) could have been seen as the last straw. After Ellaria and the SS's are released and made to swear fealty to Doran, this appears to be the point where the assassination plot was forged. Everything else happened in very short order. Why did Areo not notice anything? I don't know, cause he's not that bright? It's not like he's an especially fleshed out character.
|
|
mandzipop
Grumpkin
Still in recovery from a naked Jon Snow
Posts: 333
|
Post by mandzipop on Apr 26, 2016 2:13:49 GMT
I don't normally criticise the show because they do know better than me. However, Dorne is an issue in my mind and there are a number of things that were wrong with it.
Location. They totally shot themselves in the foot. Yes it is absolutely stunning. However, you hardly even notice it. They could have filmed it in a rubbish tip for how noticeable the scenery was. The time constraints became an issue. It also affected the fight scenes as they were spatially too confined. For all we know it may have impacted the season 6 story as they may not have had time to film anything more than what we got. They couldn't do anything with the characters due to limited filming time. It was totally impractical.
Costumes. The costumes didn't work. Way too bright. You needed sunglasses to watch the Dorne scenes. I couldn't see the actors or scenery for the costumes. I'd see a bright pink blob or the bright yellow blob. This meant I couldn't take any acting seriously. And the guard wearing yellow is the most stupid choice because it attracts every flying insect from miles around.
The visual concept on paper sounds good, put into practice and it is horrible.
The actors aren't poor actors, so why was it so bad? They were probably too busy squatting flies to have time to perfect the scenes. We know nothing about the sand snakes apart from that they want revenge for their father and for an aunt they never met. The writing is as if they are trying to make 3 female mini versions of Oberyn. Had Pedro said some of these lines, they wouldn't have sounded corny at all. Coming from the mouth of a woman, it sounds absolutely terrible. The sand snakes are too aggressive. The accents, ok accents are often very difficult to pull off.
Move the sand snakes to other plots, tone down the hideous costumes and film somewhere more logical and I think there might be an improvement. The plot itself isn't stupid. It is the execution that is poor. I'll reserve judgement until we see something from them that doesn't require them to be fighting or being aggressive.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 3:05:52 GMT
you make a good point. If the guards were all against Doran, and by extension Areo, then why would they follow his orders in s5 to firstly save myrcella, and then imprison the sandsnakes and ellaria? And why would Areo not notice the attitudes of the people of dorne and his guards and report this to doran? Again, probably too much thought being devoted to this but I think the idea here is that Doran had begrudging loyalty from most last season but him doing things like letting Jaime take Myrcella back to KL and allowing Trystane to tag along (which opened him up to being a Lannister hostage) could have been seen as the last straw. After Ellaria and the SS's are released and made to swear fealty to Doran, this appears to be the point where the assassination plot was forged. Everything else happened in very short order. Why did Areo not notice anything? I don't know, cause he's not that bright? It's not like he's an especially fleshed out character. I'm just thinking about things the writers should have thought about i really care naught for dorne, after losing Doran and Trystane, my interest went with it. But your point is quite valid, i just wish they thought to hint at it. Dorne needed a character like Arianne, they tried with Ellaria but that failed imo because they forgot the whole reason Dorne became interesting in the books. To me it was the father-daughter dynamic and the reveal of plans to side with Daenerys to take down the Lannisters. I really don't see a reason the show shouldn't have gone down that route... its so much more interesting.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Apr 26, 2016 6:37:00 GMT
They can screw up however much they like but they NEVER get to use "we only have so much time" excuse again. I never again want to hear from anyone how they cannot fit everything in the show. Not when they did this. You don't get to include Dorne and shaft/postpone Riverlands and cover your ass with time constraints.
That said I found Dornish scenes in 6x01 to be less dumb that Sansa marrying Ramsay, Stannis burning Shireen and most of Brienne's plot in s5. Ellaria and Kardashians are dumb and reckless so it was in character for them, the other 3 things I mentioned are just...incomprehensible.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 7:40:43 GMT
It was not good, I liked Doran's death scene, but I don't think that Dorne drags the quality of the show down. Dorne is just there. Only super book fans care about that plot. You can't really ignore Dorne's existence on the show. All my unsullied friends who haven't even read the books absolutely loathe Dorne. They recognized that it wasn't really that good and course corrected this year by more or less wiping out the storyline in about 4 minutes so they can concentrate on the other stuff. That's a good thing. Ellaria and the SS's are the component that they apparently need to connect with the Dany story so they've kept them around and they'll hang out off-screen until Dany gets to Westeros. True, but if they weren't going to give it a proper effort, they should have just abandoned it. It wouldn't be the first time D&D or GRRM had abandoned a plot line. An abandoned plot line can be better than a completely shit one. What do you think, will we see the SS again this season? you make a good point. If the guards were all against Doran, and by extension Areo, then why would they follow his orders in s5 to firstly save myrcella, and then imprison the sandsnakes and ellaria? And why would Areo not notice the attitudes of the people of dorne and his guards and report this to doran? Exactly, we were not shown the tension between the Dornish people and Doran. Exactly so. This change was horrible, a desperate attempt to repair the damage done by Dorne last season.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 7:44:35 GMT
They can screw up however much they like but they NEVER get to use "we only have so much time" excuse again. I never again want to hear from anyone how they cannot fit everything in the show. Not when they did this. You don't get to include Dorne and shaft/postpone Riverlands and cover your ass with time constraints. That said I found Dornish scenes in 6x01 to be less dumb that Sansa marrying Ramsay, Stannis burning Shireen and most of Brienne's plot in s5. Ellaria and Kardashians are dumb and reckless so it was in character for them, the other 3 things I mentioned are just...incomprehensible. Exactly, if they're not going to even try to do Dorne properly, then why not just give the Riverlands plot in S5? Bringing LSH (if she's on his way) in S6, three seasons after the Red Wedding could be quite a risk. I found this scene to be the dumbest of them all. To avenge house Martell, they decide to kill house Martell. How does killing Doran help anything? @rooseisazorhai had an interesting theory, when we discussed this in a private chat. He thought that in the books Doran might die in the wars between fAegon and Dany, or just die of his gout. Trystane might be another likely casualty.
|
|
|
Post by Enid on Apr 26, 2016 8:07:42 GMT
I think the main problem is that they wanted Dorne, but decided to cut the whole Aegon stuff and Arianne, and without that, there is not much to do with Dorne. They tried to have the Arianne subplot mixing it with the Sand Snakes wanting vengeance from the books, they rushed it, and they fucked it up big time. Filming in historical, protected monuments didn't help either, I mean, Sunspear is fucking beautiful, but is also clear they didn't have much time to film and they were very limited regarding what they were allowed to do in the location, which is a shame.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 8:08:54 GMT
They can screw up however much they like but they NEVER get to use "we only have so much time" excuse again. I never again want to hear from anyone how they cannot fit everything in the show. Not when they did this. You don't get to include Dorne and shaft/postpone Riverlands and cover your ass with time constraints. That said I found Dornish scenes in 6x01 to be less dumb that Sansa marrying Ramsay, Stannis burning Shireen and most of Brienne's plot in s5. Ellaria and Kardashians are dumb and reckless so it was in character for them, the other 3 things I mentioned are just...incomprehensible. Exactly, if they're not going to even try to do Dorne properly, then why not just give the Riverlands plot in S5? Bringing LSH (if she's on his way) in S6, three seasons after the Red Wedding could be quite a risk. I found this scene to be the dumbest of them all. To avenge house Martell, they decide to kill house Martell. How does killing Doran help anything? @rooseisazorhai had an interesting theory, when we discussed this in a private chat. He thought that in the books Doran might die in the wars between fAegon and Dany, or just die of his gout. Trystane might be another likely casualty. Killing Doran lets them to declare war against the Lannisters.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 8:11:25 GMT
Exactly, if they're not going to even try to do Dorne properly, then why not just give the Riverlands plot in S5? Bringing LSH (if she's on his way) in S6, three seasons after the Red Wedding could be quite a risk. I found this scene to be the dumbest of them all. To avenge house Martell, they decide to kill house Martell. How does killing Doran help anything? @rooseisazorhai had an interesting theory, when we discussed this in a private chat. He thought that in the books Doran might die in the wars between fAegon and Dany, or just die of his gout. Trystane might be another likely casualty. Killing Doran lets them to declare war against the Lannisters. Killing Myrcella was quite enough. Why not arrest Doran and strip all of his powers and then march to war? She became a kinslayer and slayed the brother of the man she wanted to avenge.
|
|
|
Post by mattpeto on Apr 26, 2016 15:33:41 GMT
I don't remember the exact comment (believe it was from the S5 blu-ray), but Dorne was a late minute addition in Season 5 pre-production. I'm guessing that the showrunners got "Obern-fat" overnight during the actual S4 run and thought it would be great to bring Dorne more into the forefront.
While, it's possible that Arianne was a character at some point, they probably never planned to bring Jon C and young Griff. Instead of casting Arianne, they just decided to use Indira Varma to merge the role especially with the abbreviated storyline (no fAegon adaption)
So, I think 601 was a clever way to wrap up the bullshit down there. It almost verified the fans' feelings about the show's major weakness (S5-Dorne) and purged it out of its misery, while keeping around Varma for what's coming next. I just wished we would have lost a Sand Snake or two during the little rebellion.
But, now I'm kind of excited about what's coming next in Dorne for a change...
|
|
|
Post by day dreamer on Apr 26, 2016 15:34:22 GMT
Killing Doran lets them to declare war against the Lannisters. Killing Myrcella was quite enough. Why not arrest Doran and strip all of his powers and then march to war? She became a kinslayer and slayed the brother of the man she wanted to avenge. Not to mention killing Dorne's ruler without a suitable replacement? Yeah, I'm sure the Lannisters and Tyrells are going to be shaking in their boots. I wish D&D would comment on why they chose to handle Dorne that way, but I think they know they fucked up. If their intention was to completely erase Dorne, they STILL went about it the wrong way. Having Doran execute Ellaria and the Sham Snakes for treason would've been a better way to end Dorne. I hate to say it, but I feel like D&D thought the GA would eat up their faux feminism here because it's women doing the killing. But if the women are still bad characters, no one will care. Every single GA person I know hated Dorne. They either wanted more of Doran, or no Dorne at all.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 17:04:11 GMT
I don't remember the exact comment (believe it was from the S5 blu-ray), but Dorne was a late minute addition in Season 5 pre-production. I'm guessing that the showrunners got "Obern-fat" overnight during the actual S4 run and thought it would be great to bring Dorne more into the forefront. While, it's possible that Arianne was a character at some point, they probably never planned to bring Jon C and young Griff. Instead of casting Arianne, they just decided to use Indira Varma to merge the role especially with the abbreviated storyline (no fAegon adaption) So, I think 601 was a clever way to wrap up the bullshit down there. It almost verified the fans' feelings about the show's major weakness (S5-Dorne) and purged it out of its misery, while keeping around Varma for what's coming next. I just wished we would have lost a Sand Snake or two during the little rebellion. But, now I'm kind of excited about what's coming next in Dorne for a change... They should have actually placed time and actual effort into the Dorne scripts and after that they should consider about actually filming it. Seemed like a rushed, lazy and weak story line in overall. Well, not really clever, a bit lazy. Make Ellaria and SS try to crown Myrcella -> she dies somehow -> Lannisters are pissed, Doran reveals Fire and Blood -> Dorne joins team Dany. This could have all been done with the same amount of screen time than the mess in season 5. Lazy and shallow writing. They should have consulted George on this one. Avenging Oberyn by killing all of his family? Makes zero sense at all. Killing Myrcella was quite enough. Why not arrest Doran and strip all of his powers and then march to war? She became a kinslayer and slayed the brother of the man she wanted to avenge. Not to mention killing Dorne's ruler without a suitable replacement? Yeah, I'm sure the Lannisters and Tyrells are going to be shaking in their boots. I wish D&D would comment on why they chose to handle Dorne that way, but I think they know they fucked up. If their intention was to completely erase Dorne, they STILL went about it the wrong way. Having Doran execute Ellaria and the Sham Snakes for treason would've been a better way to end Dorne. I hate to say it, but I feel like D&D thought the GA would eat up their faux feminism here because it's women doing the killing. But if the women are still bad characters, no one will care. Every single GA person I know hated Dorne. They either wanted more of Doran, or no Dorne at all. Exactly. I'm sure that house Yronwood and Dayne wouldn't be too pleased of the death of the last Martells. But I guess the show won't address the other noble houses, but instead claim that everyone is fine in someone who doesn't even have Martell blood in her veins taking over the land. Doran offing Ellaria & SS and then just taking Dany's side would have been so much better.. or then he could actually congratulate them and reveal that he has been working with Dany all along. But hooray shock value. Exactly, were D&D so naive that they thought that they could slip away with it with some magical girl power?
|
|
|
Post by Enid on Apr 26, 2016 17:24:12 GMT
The show makes it look like the only region that requires obedience from other noble houses to be ruled and has power struggles is the North (and the Riverlands to a certain extent). The Reach, the Vale, the Stormlands, the West and Dorne apparently have no families that rival their wardens in wealth or influence or power, no old rivalries or feuds, so it wouldn't surprise me if the dornish families just accept what Ellaria did and let her rule. I mean, I can believe the West has not forgotten about Castamere, and I understand that the show can't be as complex as the books, but I still miss those kind of details because they really add a lot of realism to the political situation of Westeros.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 17:33:03 GMT
The show makes it look like the only region that requires obedience from other noble houses to be ruled and has power struggles is the North (and the Riverlands to a certain extent). The Reach, the Vale, the Stormlands, the West and Dorne apparently have no families that rival their wardens in wealth or influence or power, no old rivalries or feuds, so it wouldn't surprise me if the dornish families just accept what Ellaria did and let her rule. I mean, I can believe the West has not forgotten about Castamere, and I understand that the show can't be as complex as the books, but I still miss those kind of details because they really add a lot of realism to the political situation of Westeros. The whole Lords Declarant scene from 4x08 was the Lords of the Vale challenging LF's rule. I don't remember what happened to Stormlands in the books after Stannis sailed north.
|
|