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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 4:17:26 GMT
And now for my second change of prediction ... this one's a big one (special shout out to @witchy for always having a compelling argument on this one) ... because I'm including her that's why I've done nothing but speculation and predictions based on the past seasons and the trailers... NO SPOILERS GUYS! (there aren't any that we know of for this one anyways)
So here's my Theory change #2 in the 11th hour that will possibly be revealed in s6:
Theory: Tyrion likely is the bastard son of King Aerys!
Tywin certainly gave us enough clues in multiple scenes of the show. Many thought it was just his hatred for Tyrion and the fact that his wife died in childbirth with Tyrion that spawns such malice and so did I for the longest time. But once again, we need to remember that the show has always been big on foreshadowing even though a lot of it has been vague or missed by many, myself included.
Why would they include specific lines for Tywin on more than one occasion, right down to his words as he's dying that Tyrion is not his son? Why say twice to Tyrion directly that he did his duty by letting Tyrion live even when he wanted to kill him as a baby? I assumed it was shame because he's a dwarf. He did say he could not prove Tyrion was not his son so he raised him and allowed him to wear the Lannister sigil despite... what? Despite the fact Tywin had always suspected the truth and that it's not about Tyrion's dwarfism or his Mother dying in childbirth at all? Tywin never says those two things are the cause. If they were.. wouldn't he have said it?
Tywin also has a scene with Arya where the three dragons who conquered Westeros with Aegon were talked about.
This scene had other interesting tidbits important to the scene at the time, but it also had a curious inclusion of Aegon and his three sisters riding the three dragons. Arya was the one to correct Tywin on the names of the sisters and the dragons they rode which Tywin seems to have forgotten (on purpose probably). Could this have been a foreshadowing of the future to come with three new dragons and they wanted something to call back to with the one man who would have known best the truth? Tywin.
Of all the scenes where Tywin denounced Tyrion as his son, this one was the most telling:
Tywin: "I would let myself be consumed by maggots before mocking the family and making you heir to Casterly Rock."
Tyrion: "Why?"
Tywin: "Why?! You ask that? You who killed your Mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made spiteful little creature full of envy, lust and low cunning. Man's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors since I cannot prove that you are not mine ... And to teach me humility the Gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my Father's sigil and his Father's before him."
---
Why would Tywin use this as his main reason for hatred in allowing Tyrion to live and be raised as a Lannister noble if it's actually just because he's a Dwarf who married a whore and disgraces their name and because his Mother died? Those don't add up. Tywin would tell it like it is if that were the case. But instead he gives a pretty heavy clue that he does not truly believe Tyrion is his son.
It's still very possible Tyrion is Tywin's son but again, the fact that the show went through the trouble of including this bit from Tywin himself is pretty good foreshadowing. The rumors that Aerys was infatuated with Tywin's wife and may have invoked king's rights with her are the only background we have to know there's that possibility Tyrion is a bastard of Aerys and not Tywin's legitimate son.
Again, it's Youtuber Sixth Sigma who put together the compelling argument that has me changing my mind that it's very likely we'll see Tyrion interacting with Rhaegal and Viserion down in that prison where they are chained and probably releasing them without being killed. Not because he's immune to fire too but possibly because the dragons recognize him as Targaryen bloodline.
The show went through the effort of foreshadowing it so I'm listening and I'm considering it definitely possible now. I think if it's truly possible, we'll find out this season when Tyrion goes down in that dungeon with the dragons. If it's true, then Tyrion already joined forces with Daenerys is one move forward in time to bring them closer to joining forces with Jon Snow in Westeros as the three heads of the dragon to defeat the Others and save mankind.
I always thought it was a little cliche' but I'm really coming around to embracing the three heads of the dragon theory and that is why I started watching dozens of different theorists explain lots of different angles on it. It's Sixth Sigma who finally convinced me. Here's his video on Tyrion:
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 8:31:43 GMT
Eh, I stopped reading after seeing the theory.
If any Lannisters are Targs, it's Cersei & Jaime.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 10:11:44 GMT
Mmm it sure is interesting. There are many paralells between Tyrion, Dany and Jon. With the former two being Targaryen (one full, one half). So i think its definitely possible that the things which connect them are in fact because they share a bloodline i guess.
Although i, myself would prefer that Tyrion remain a lannister only, i cant ignore the clues in the book and those quotes you showed they included in the show. But i wouldn't be surprised if they were included because they are just great lines and not for any reason.
Regardless i think Tyrion will have some connections to the dragons, that could be telling on who his father truly was.
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Post by kingeomer on Apr 17, 2016 13:05:40 GMT
I really hope Tyrion is not a Targaryen....but it would not surprise me if he turns out to be one. I do think he will have something to do with the dragons that is important but I don't know if that will include actually riding one...or being able to get one to do his bidding somehow.
I always liked the idea of Tyrion running Casterly Rock at the end (and running it well) so Tywin would just be endlessly rolling over in his grave. The child he had no time for was actually the heir who would restore a good rep to the Lannister name after all the this time.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 13:54:56 GMT
And now for my second change of prediction ... this one's a big one (special shout out to @witchy for always having a compelling argument on this one) ... because I'm including her that's why I've done nothing but speculation and predictions based on the past seasons and the trailers... NO SPOILERS GUYS! (there aren't any that we know of for this one anyways) So here's my Theory change #2 in the 11th hour that will possibly be revealed in s6: Theory: Tyrion likely is the bastard son of King Aerys! Tywin certainly gave us enough clues in multiple scenes of the show. Many thought it was just his hatred for Tyrion and the fact that his wife died in childbirth with Tyrion that spawns such malice and so did I for the longest time. But once again, we need to remember that the show has always been big on foreshadowing even though a lot of it has been vague or missed by many, myself included. Why would they include specific lines for Tywin on more than one occasion, right down to his words as he's dying that Tyrion is not his son? Why say twice to Tyrion directly that he did his duty by letting Tyrion live even when he wanted to kill him as a baby? I assumed it was shame because he's a dwarf. He did say he could not prove Tyrion was not his son so he raised him and allowed him to wear the Lannister sigil despite... what? Despite the fact Tywin had always suspected the truth and that it's not about Tyrion's dwarfism or his Mother dying in childbirth at all? Tywin never says those two things are the cause. If they were.. wouldn't he have said it? Tywin also has a scene with Arya where the three dragons who conquered Westeros with Aegon were talked about. This scene had other interesting tidbits important to the scene at the time, but it also had a curious inclusion of Aegon and his three sisters riding the three dragons. Arya was the one to correct Tywin on the names of the sisters and the dragons they rode which Tywin seems to have forgotten (on purpose probably). Could this have been a foreshadowing of the future to come with three new dragons and they wanted something to call back to with the one man who would have known best the truth? Tywin. Of all the scenes where Tywin denounced Tyrion as his son, this one was the most telling: Tywin: "I would let myself be consumed by maggots before mocking the family and making you heir to Casterly Rock." Tyrion: "Why?" Tywin: "Why?! You ask that? You who killed your Mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made spiteful little creature full of envy, lust and low cunning. Man's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors since I cannot prove that you are not mine ... And to teach me humility the Gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my Father's sigil and his Father's before him." --- Why would Tywin use this as his main reason for hatred in allowing Tyrion to live and be raised as a Lannister noble if it's actually just because he's a Dwarf who married a whore and disgraces their name and because his Mother died? Those don't add up. Tywin would tell it like it is if that were the case. But instead he gives a pretty heavy clue that he does not truly believe Tyrion is his son. It's still very possible Tyrion is Tywin's son but again, the fact that the show went through the trouble of including this bit from Tywin himself is pretty good foreshadowing. The rumors that Aerys was infatuated with Tywin's wife and may have invoked king's rights with her are the only background we have to know there's that possibility Tyrion is a bastard of Aerys and not Tywin's legitimate son. Again, it's Youtuber Sixth Sigma who put together the compelling argument that has me changing my mind that it's very likely we'll see Tyrion interacting with Rhaegal and Viserion down in that prison where they are chained and probably releasing them without being killed. Not because he's immune to fire too but possibly because the dragons recognize him as Targaryen bloodline. The show went through the effort of foreshadowing it so I'm listening and I'm considering it definitely possible now. I think if it's truly possible, we'll find out this season when Tyrion goes down in that dungeon with the dragons. If it's true, then Tyrion already joined forces with Daenerys is one move forward in time to bring them closer to joining forces with Jon Snow in Westeros as the three heads of the dragon to defeat the Others and save mankind. I always thought it was a little cliche' but I'm really coming around to embracing the three heads of the dragon theory and that is why I started watching dozens of different theorists explain lots of different angles on it. It's Sixth Sigma who finally convinced me. Here's his video on Tyrion: Yes! Yassssss, come to the dark side! I'm here all by my lonesome! I think it only seems cliche to have the three main characters be the three heads of the dragon and the three remaining Targaryans, hidden right in plain sight, because we had too many years to come up with less obvious alternatives. In my view, this ending has and has always had a big honking red light on it "over here is the end game!!!" and I'm the only one seeing it.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 13:56:57 GMT
Because I'm obnoxious, here's my most popular video again, complete with a missing "s" on one of the slides.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 14:10:17 GMT
It's also interesting to note that Tyrion now knows both Jon and Dany personally. He has been to the Wall and has been to Essos. So if Jon and Dany are indeed to join forces, Tyrion is the perfect mediator.
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Post by Admin on Apr 17, 2016 14:31:06 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised at all if Tyrion is a Targaryen
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 14:42:00 GMT
Eh, I stopped reading after seeing the theory. If any Lannisters are Targs, it's Cersei & Jaime. Well see, you're missing some of the fun of speculation if you refuse to even consider alternatives. I'm always listening to other people's theories (well except the truly outlandish ones) and for years now I have refused to want to believe Tyrion is a Targ theories. But I'm putting myself out here to say "hey I might have been wrong and here's why..." which gives me the capacity to change and adapt my thinking. I think I'm probably the oldest cat here in the group, having read the original GoT back in 1996. I've had a loooong time to let my personal theories get set in stone but as the fandom changes and the story changes with the show, I have renewed interest in different perspectives. It's fun! Mmm it sure is interesting. There are many paralells between Tyrion, Dany and Jon. With the former two being Targaryen (one full, one half). So i think its definitely possible that the things which connect them are in fact because they share a bloodline i guess. Although i, myself would prefer that Tyrion remain a lannister only, i cant ignore the clues in the book and those quotes you showed they included in the show. But i wouldn't be surprised if they were included because they are just great lines and not for any reason. Regardless i think Tyrion will have some connections to the dragons, that could be telling on who his father truly was. I agree the parallels of Tyrion with Dany and Jon have increased. I never considered him a potential Targaryen. I preferred that he become some sort of important liaison for the crown, or hand of the king/queen whoever that ends up being. That is, afterall where his real talents are. But even if he is half Targ, he'd still make a great leader and great advisor. Tyrion has been obsessed with dragons since he was a boy, reading all about them. Perhaps it's finally time he has direct interaction with them. He was always one of the skeptics... insisting snarks and grumpkins were just the stories we were told as kids. But I think in his heart of hearts he wants to believe. I wanted him to be the best of the Lannisters too and if he ends up being only Lannister I'm happy with that outcome for him as well. I'm not campaigning for a big Tyrion Targaryen hype train... just had inspiration yesterday that made me decide to declare myself open to the possibility that he is one. I think we'll find out in the show if so. I really hope Tyrion is not a Targaryen....but it would not surprise me if he turns out to be one. I do think he will have something to do with the dragons that is important but I don't know if that will include actually riding one...or being able to get one to do his bidding somehow. I always liked the idea of Tyrion running Casterly Rock at the end (and running it well) so Tywin would just be endlessly rolling over in his grave. The child he had no time for was actually the heir who would restore a good rep to the Lannister name after all the this time. Yeah I still have a certain percentage of my thoughts that resist it and like you, hopes he's not one. The fact they are having him go down into the dungeon where the dragons are chained up is significant though ... even if he's not a Targaryen. No one believes he's going to get roasted no matter how much they tried to make it look like that in the trailer's ending. Tyrion has thick plot armor and a bigger part to play in the end game I'm sure of it. Like you, I would love to see Tyrion take over and rule Casterly Rock even better than his Father before him just to prove he can. Perhaps he still will even as a half Targ and that could be awesome as well... him having his own place to rule yet still connected to Jon and Daenerys. Just because he is half Targ doesn't mean he isn't half Lannister and can still be the heir. It will depend on what happens with Jaime and Cersei. Yes! Yassssss, come to the dark side! I'm here all by my lonesome! I think it only seems cliche to have the three main characters be the three heads of the dragon and the three remaining Targaryans, hidden right in plain sight, because we had too many years to come up with less obvious alternatives. In my view, this ending has and has always had a big honking red light on it "over here is the end game!!!" and I'm the only one seeing it. You're not the only one seeing it ... apparently lots of fans are in the Tyrion Targaryen boat - but maybe not here in our group haha!. I honestly never wanted it and still am about 50/50 on whether or not I like it. I can accept it if it's true and enjoy the outcome but there's still a part of me didn't want that to be his fate. And you're right about maybe it seems overly cliche because we've spent so many years trying to come up with clever alternatives to every single character's fate that the most obvious starts to seem boring. I do think people try to make things more convoluted than necessary. That's one of the reasons I didn't want him to be a Targaryen ... because it muddies up the implications for him as a Lannister ruler which is something he wanted to do (and was good at). Tyrion didn't need a plot twist really, but I'm definitely onboard with you in thinking we're going to get it and it will probably be this season on the show. He's going to have some sort of connection with Rhaegal and/or Viserion and free them and they aren't going to kill him. Even if he himself doesn't know it at that moment, there's going to be the groundwork for it as a future reveal. It's also interesting to note that Tyrion now knows both Jon and Dany personally. He has been to the Wall and has been to Essos. So if Jon and Dany are indeed to join forces, Tyrion is the perfect mediator. Yes! This was actually the key thought that got me wondering more about his 'endgame' yesterday while I was sick. I was watching a bunch of theory videos about various characters and realized hardly anyone comes up with something 'different' for Tyrion. I think because he has the most chapters and POV in the books, it's more obvious that with Tyrion what you see is what you get. That very well may be the case, but he definitely has a big future in store and I believe like you said, it's as a mediator between Jon Snow and Daenerys. They took the trouble to have him go all the way up to the wall on the show. If you think about it, that story was completely unnecessary if he's never really going to have any connection to Jon Snow. There was no one else up there for him to connect with so why put it on the show, it was wasted story time... or it wasn't. It was foreshadowing to a future with the one key player up there he interacted with the most other than LC Mormont who is of course dead now. Tyrion will be able to talk to Jon... Jon trusts him as one of the 'misfits' who understands him, and he'll have Daenerys trust too. He's definitely going to be a key player between them regardless of whether he himself ends up being a Targaryen as well or not. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 14:50:12 GMT
So, I thought I'd address a few of the arguments against this theory I see come up from time to time. The first, and most compelling, I think, is that Tyrion not really being Tywin's son does a disservice to the story because it ruins the importance of their relationship and Tyrion killing him. To this I say, whether or not he was biologically his son, he was his son. Tywin raised him alone from babyhood alongside Jaime and Cersei. He gave him his name. He _was_ his son, even if he wasn't. It's true that this would let Tyrion out of being a kin-slayer in the eyes of the gods, but that seems just to me. We know that Tyrion isn't evil. Imperfect, yes, but forgivable. It also adds the interesting twist that Jaime killed Tyrion's father, and Tyrion killed Jaime's. This revelation is even foreshadowed on the show in that conversation between Jaime and Tyrion Are you really asking if I killed your son? Are you really asking if I'd kill my brother? It also explains why Tywin hated the Targs so much. Some people have argued with the timing, but The World of Ice and Fire confirms that Joanna was still at Kings Landing after the twins were born and could have been there during Tyrion's conception. If he raped her and got her pregnant, that might be why she went away to Casterly Rock. It's true that the one time _we know_ the king did something to Joanna was on her wedding night, but that could have been anything short of rape. And even if he raped her that night, it doesn't mean she became pregnant. Even if she did, well, hell, maybe ALL of Tywin's kids are Targs, and he's sterile. dragon2 I rather doubt that, but it would be an interesting twist if it turned out he's been populating the throne with the enemy. Anyhoo, another argument against is that Tyrion is so Lannister, it would suck if he turns out not to be. Well, guess who else was a Lannister by birth? His mama, Joanna. Tyrion has the blood of Lann the Clever in his veins regardless of who his daddy was. And Tyrion had to rely on his brains, so he acted more like Tywin than Jaime ever did. I think that's what the aunt comment about Tyrion being Tywin's real son was all about. Cersei claims she's the only one who paid attention to Tywin, but Tyrion echoes Tywin's comments about family all the time, just sometimes ironically. The argument against that bugs me most is that he's a dwarf, and people don't want to see him riding a dragon. Come on now, y'all. Think about that for a minute. How is it not just flat wrong to discriminate against cripples, bastards, and broken things like that? GRRM is on the side of the down-trodden. There is precedent for Tyrion building special saddles. That motherfucker is riding a dragon, and it's going to be majestic. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 14:54:51 GMT
So, I thought I'd address a few of the arguments against this theory I see come up from time to time. The first, and most compelling, I think, is that Tyrion not really being Tywin's son does a disservice to the story because it ruins the importance of their relationship and Tyrion killing him. To this I say, whether or not he was biologically his son, he was his son. Tywin raised him alone from babyhood alongside Jaime and Cersei. He gave him his name. He _was_ his son, even if he wasn't. It's true that this would let Tyrion out of being a kin-slayer in the eyes of the gods, but that seems just to me. We know that Tyrion isn't evil. Imperfect, yes, but forgivable. It also adds the interesting twist that Jaime killed Tyrion's father, and Tyrion killed Jaime's. This revelation is even foreshadowed on the show in that conversation between Jaime and Tyrion Are you really asking if I killed your son? Are you really asking if I'd kill my brother? It also explains why Tywin hated the Targs so much. Some people have argued with the timing, but The World of Ice and Fire confirms that Joanna was still at Kings Landing after the twins were born and could have been there during Tyrion's conception. If he raped her and got her pregnant, that might be why she went away to Casterly Rock. It's true that the one time _we know_ the king did something to Joanna was on her wedding night, but that could have been anything short of rape. And even if he raped her that night, it doesn't mean she became pregnant. Even if she did, well, hell, maybe ALL of Tywin's kids are Targs, and he's sterile. dragon2 I rather doubt that, but it would be an interesting twist if it turned out he's been populating the throne with the enemy. Anyhoo, another argument against is that Tyrion is so Lannister, it would suck if he turns out not to be. Well, guess who else was a Lannister by birth? His mama, Joanna. Tyrion has the blood of Lann the Clever in his veins regardless of who his daddy was. And Tyrion had to rely on his brains, so he acted more like Tywin than Jaime ever did. I think that's what the aunt comment about Tyrion being Tywin's real son was all about. Cersei claims she's the only one who paid attention to Tywin, but Tyrion echoes Tywin's comments about family all the time, just sometimes ironically. The argument against that bugs me most is that he's a dwarf, and people don't want to see him riding a dragon. Come on now, y'all. Think about that for a minute. How is it not just flat wrong to discriminate against cripples, bastards, and broken things like that? GRRM is on the side of the down-trodden. There is precedent for Tyrion building special saddles. That motherfucker is riding a dragon, and it's going to be majestic. I think it's now pretty likely that he'll ride a dragon. His dreams when he was a child, his fascination in them, the S6 trailer. Tyrion will ride a dragon. And come on, it wouldn't look so weird. The CGI of Dany riding Drogon looked ridiculous IMO. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 15:01:02 GMT
So, I thought I'd address a few of the arguments against this theory I see come up from time to time. The first, and most compelling, I think, is that Tyrion not really being Tywin's son does a disservice to the story because it ruins the importance of their relationship and Tyrion killing him. To this I say, whether or not he was biologically his son, he was his son. Tywin raised him alone from babyhood alongside Jaime and Cersei. He gave him his name. He _was_ his son, even if he wasn't. It's true that this would let Tyrion out of being a kin-slayer in the eyes of the gods, but that seems just to me. We know that Tyrion isn't evil. Imperfect, yes, but forgivable. It also adds the interesting twist that Jaime killed Tyrion's father, and Tyrion killed Jaime's. This revelation is even foreshadowed on the show in that conversation between Jaime and Tyrion Are you really asking if I killed your son? Are you really asking if I'd kill my brother? It also explains why Tywin hated the Targs so much. Some people have argued with the timing, but The World of Ice and Fire confirms that Joanna was still at Kings Landing after the twins were born and could have been there during Tyrion's conception. If he raped her and got her pregnant, that might be why she went away to Casterly Rock. It's true that the one time _we know_ the king did something to Joanna was on her wedding night, but that could have been anything short of rape. And even if he raped her that night, it doesn't mean she became pregnant. Even if she did, well, hell, maybe ALL of Tywin's kids are Targs, and he's sterile. dragon2 I rather doubt that, but it would be an interesting twist if it turned out he's been populating the throne with the enemy. Anyhoo, another argument against is that Tyrion is so Lannister, it would suck if he turns out not to be. Well, guess who else was a Lannister by birth? His mama, Joanna. Tyrion has the blood of Lann the Clever in his veins regardless of who his daddy was. And Tyrion had to rely on his brains, so he acted more like Tywin than Jaime ever did. I think that's what the aunt comment about Tyrion being Tywin's real son was all about. Cersei claims she's the only one who paid attention to Tywin, but Tyrion echoes Tywin's comments about family all the time, just sometimes ironically. The argument against that bugs me most is that he's a dwarf, and people don't want to see him riding a dragon. Come on now, y'all. Think about that for a minute. How is it not just flat wrong to discriminate against cripples, bastards, and broken things like that? GRRM is on the side of the down-trodden. There is precedent for Tyrion building special saddles. That motherfucker is riding a dragon, and it's going to be majestic. I think it's now pretty likely that he'll ride a dragon. His dreams when he was a child, his fascination in them, the S6 trailer. Tyrion will ride a dragon. And come on, it wouldn't look so weird. The CGI of Dany riding Drogon looked ridiculous IMO. There is also the possibility that he could be the first person who is not the blood of Valyria to ever ride a dragon, not using intuition, but using brains and engineering. I think the evidence doesn't point that way, but it would be kind of cool if that's what happened. |
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Post by archiechvyalthan on Apr 17, 2016 15:03:38 GMT
I have a feeling this theory is correct although I do not enjoy it very much. Jaime and Cersei have all the Targaryen lunacy and feelings of superiority. Tyrion has.... none of that. He is witty and clever, which I've always seen as Lannister traits. I would rather they all keep being Lannisters, though  |
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Post by archiechvyalthan on Apr 17, 2016 15:05:42 GMT
I think it's now pretty likely that he'll ride a dragon. His dreams when he was a child, his fascination in them, the S6 trailer. Tyrion will ride a dragon. And come on, it wouldn't look so weird. The CGI of Dany riding Drogon looked ridiculous IMO. There is also the possibility that he could be the first person who is not the blood of Valyria to ever ride a dragon, not using intuition, but using brains and engineering. I think the evidence doesn't point that way, but it would be kind of cool if that's what happened. That would be far more interesting imo. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 15:09:33 GMT
I think it's now pretty likely that he'll ride a dragon. His dreams when he was a child, his fascination in them, the S6 trailer. Tyrion will ride a dragon. And come on, it wouldn't look so weird. The CGI of Dany riding Drogon looked ridiculous IMO. There is also the possibility that he could be the first person who is not the blood of Valyria to ever ride a dragon, not using intuition, but using brains and engineering. I think the evidence doesn't point that way, but it would be kind of cool if that's what happened. GRRM has also said that you don't need Valyrian blood to be able to ride a dragon. We have three dragons. Dany rides Drogon. That leaves two other dragons. I guess Tyrion will ride Viserion, and Euron will take Rhaegal. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 15:12:59 GMT
So, I thought I'd address a few of the arguments against this theory I see come up from time to time. The first, and most compelling, I think, is that Tyrion not really being Tywin's son does a disservice to the story because it ruins the importance of their relationship and Tyrion killing him. To this I say, whether or not he was biologically his son, he was his son. Tywin raised him alone from babyhood alongside Jaime and Cersei. He gave him his name. He _was_ his son, even if he wasn't. It's true that this would let Tyrion out of being a kin-slayer in the eyes of the gods, but that seems just to me. We know that Tyrion isn't evil. Imperfect, yes, but forgivable. It also adds the interesting twist that Jaime killed Tyrion's father, and Tyrion killed Jaime's. This revelation is even foreshadowed on the show in that conversation between Jaime and Tyrion Are you really asking if I killed your son? Are you really asking if I'd kill my brother? It also explains why Tywin hated the Targs so much. Some people have argued with the timing, but The World of Ice and Fire confirms that Joanna was still at Kings Landing after the twins were born and could have been there during Tyrion's conception. If he raped her and got her pregnant, that might be why she went away to Casterly Rock. It's true that the one time _we know_ the king did something to Joanna was on her wedding night, but that could have been anything short of rape. And even if he raped her that night, it doesn't mean she became pregnant. Even if she did, well, hell, maybe ALL of Tywin's kids are Targs, and he's sterile. dragon2 I rather doubt that, but it would be an interesting twist if it turned out he's been populating the throne with the enemy. Anyhoo, another argument against is that Tyrion is so Lannister, it would suck if he turns out not to be. Well, guess who else was a Lannister by birth? His mama, Joanna. Tyrion has the blood of Lann the Clever in his veins regardless of who his daddy was. And Tyrion had to rely on his brains, so he acted more like Tywin than Jaime ever did. I think that's what the aunt comment about Tyrion being Tywin's real son was all about. Cersei claims she's the only one who paid attention to Tywin, but Tyrion echoes Tywin's comments about family all the time, just sometimes ironically. The argument against that bugs me most is that he's a dwarf, and people don't want to see him riding a dragon. Come on now, y'all. Think about that for a minute. How is it not just flat wrong to discriminate against cripples, bastards, and broken things like that? GRRM is on the side of the down-trodden. There is precedent for Tyrion building special saddles. That motherfucker is riding a dragon, and it's going to be majestic. This is an awesome summary of all the reasons people give why Tyrion shouldn't be a Targaryen. Thanks for writing that up! I'm never going to dismiss those arguments. They have some validity and people have a point as much to one side as the other in this one. I personally was in the boat that thought it would be far more fitting for Tyrion to end up being the most "Lannister like" of all of them, to spite his Father's hatred. But since he's still half Lannister, he can still be that too! Just as Jon Snow is still half Stark, and carries a great deal of that idealogy and loyalty, so too would half Targaryen half Lannister Tyrion. You're absolutely right that Tywin WAS his Father for all intents and purposes as much as a stepfather or adoptive father is to anyone in our world. If you raised that child from a baby or young child, it's your child regardless of biology. As for Tyrion looking ridiculous on a dragon, I've long ago dismissed that one even though I respect the opinion of those who say it. Yes he's a dwarf with stunted legs, but legs don't matter one bit on the back of a dragon and even Targaryen children rode them long ago so it's not impossible for a small person to handle it and Tyrion has saddle plans too. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 15:16:53 GMT
There is also the possibility that he could be the first person who is not the blood of Valyria to ever ride a dragon, not using intuition, but using brains and engineering. I think the evidence doesn't point that way, but it would be kind of cool if that's what happened. GRRM has also said that you don't need Valyrian blood to be able to ride a dragon. We have three dragons. Dany rides Drogon. That leaves two other dragons. I guess Tyrion will ride Viserion, and Euron will take Rhaegal. I'm not a fan of the Euron rides a dragon theories, but that's because he has no ties to the other two and the three heads of the dragon which I DO think is a thing... it's as much a prophecy that likely is part of GRRM's overall theme as Azor Ahai and all that. I think whoever rides the other two, regardless of whether they're Targaryen or not, need to have some ties to the others in some way. Tyrion as 'mediator' between Dany and Jon makes the most sense to me at this point. He's been to the wall and seen it, he knows and respects Jon and Jon respects him. This will work out. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 15:21:21 GMT
I have a feeling this theory is correct although I do not enjoy it very much. Jaime and Cersei have all the Targaryen lunacy and feelings of superiority. Tyrion has.... none of that. He is witty and clever, which I've always seen as Lannister traits. I would rather they all keep being Lannisters, though This is an excellent point about Tyrion's personality. As much as we'd like to think of the Lannisters as clever, they really weren't that much at all. Tywin did have the ability to move his pawns on the board in clever ways and was a strong leader, but he wasn't particularly witty or well liked by any means. He was respected and/or feared. I have always been like you, preferring they keep all the Lannisters as Lannister and the Targaryens as Targaryen. I didn't want the two mixed. But so many theories past now, I've come around to the idea as much as I have some other theories about the story that aren't exactly what I envisioned like Bran and his future. It all could be wrong - this theory. I'm ok with that too. I'm not fighting for it, just really examining it as a possibility I think we may find out soon. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 15:24:29 GMT
GRRM has also said that you don't need Valyrian blood to be able to ride a dragon. We have three dragons. Dany rides Drogon. That leaves two other dragons. I guess Tyrion will ride Viserion, and Euron will take Rhaegal. . it's as much a prophecy that likely is part of GRRM's overall theme as Azor Ahai and all that. I think whoever rides the other two, regardless of whether they're Targaryen or not, need to have some ties to the others in some way. Tyrion as 'mediator' between Dany and Jon makes the most sense to me at this point. He's been to the wall and seen it, he knows and respects Jon and Jon respects him. This will work out. Euron riding a dragon wouldn't be because the dragon likes him (as it is with Dany), but because the dragon is his slave. |
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Shaena
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Post by Shaena on Apr 17, 2016 15:29:20 GMT
There is also the possibility that he could be the first person who is not the blood of Valyria to ever ride a dragon, not using intuition, but using brains and engineering. I think the evidence doesn't point that way, but it would be kind of cool if that's what happened. GRRM has also said that you don't need Valyrian blood to be able to ride a dragon. We have three dragons. Dany rides Drogon. That leaves two other dragons. I guess Tyrion will ride Viserion, and Euron will take Rhaegal. Sorry for chimming in, but that's not what he said. The exact wording of SSM I believe you have in mind is this: This third Targaryen might very well be -not- a Targaryen, to quote his exact words... "Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not nessesarily BE a Targaryen..." www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1261/Now, the question is, what makes "a Targaryen"? Is it the blood, or is it also the name? Much has been made of that Snow is not a Stark, Blackfyre is not a Targaryen, etc. There is also the fact we don't know the question which led to this answer. We can't even say for sure if the second head HAS to be "a Targaryen" as well. ETA: It may very well be that Tyrion is Aerys' bastard, but Dany will legitimaze him as his mother's son and grant him Casterly Rock, which would formally make him a Lannister, albeit a dragon-riding one. |
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