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Post by Admin on Jul 4, 2015 22:16:12 GMT
She can't keep people safe who are not under her protection. While at Winterfell, Sansa wasn't under Brienne's protection any more than she was while at the Eryie. Brienne has learned that she can't force her protection on the girls. They need to agree to accept her service. The candle was Sansa's way of saying "Yes, I will accept your help now." There was no point in making a move until Brienne saw that Sansa was ready. The last two times she tried just barging didn't work. And Brienne didn't know what Sansa's status was inside the walls. Again, Brienne made Cat promise that she would not hold her back if Stannis came near her. Sansa took too long to light the candle to let Brienne know she was ready for protection, so it was missed. Brienne didn't break her oath there because as far as she knew Sansa still hadn't accepted her service. It is frankly doubtful she could have done anything anyways, but that is a different issue. And, moreover, the odds are that Brienne will protect Sansa early on in s6 anyways. Too little, too late. Brienne deserves death for screwing up and killing Stannis.
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Post by freeparking on Jul 4, 2015 22:24:40 GMT
Both Arya and Sansa refused her help, and then Brienne had to contend with their current "protectors." She didn't let them go, because they were at no point with her in the first place. She hasn't broken her oath; she is still trying to fulfill it. Except this time she is letting Sansa say "I want your help" before she bothers to try anything, since clearly the girls need to decide to come with her willingly. And it is important to note that LSH doesn't intend to hang Brienne because she failed to have her daughters. She wants to hang Brienne because she has a Lannister sword, a note from Tommen, a Lannister squire, and was shouting Jaime while she was having a fever dream. Also because her story about Jaime sending her out to protect the girls sounds absurd to LSH. I have to agree on this, I think people are being overly harsh on Brienne. She's no better or worse than she was in the books and LSH wanting to hang her was a misunderstanding of intent since it was Jaime who sent her out there and of course LSH only remembers the Jaime she captured and let go that caused a lot of the mess. Let's not forget Catelyn herself was a major contributor to much of the confusion that fueled the war. Brienne has unfortunately been a pawn as much as many others in this game. I really don't know how you guys don't see it - instead of staying and waiting for the sign she chooses her own SELFISHNESS and goes after Stannis. She is an Oathbreaker and Kingslayer. Not to mention a moron, with that whole candle plan. Brienne has two oaths. One to herself and one to Cat. She is currently unable to fulfill her oath to Cat because Sansa has refused her service. It is pretty much impossible to protect someone who doesn't want you around. Since, at the time of Stannis's arrival, Sansa still hasn't accepted Brienne's service, she goes off to fulfill her other oath. She hasn't broken her oath because has never gotten a chance to fulfill it. Also, Brienne has never viewed Stannis as her king, so I doubt she cares about that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2015 22:24:50 GMT
And, moreover, the odds are that Brienne will protect Sansa early on in s6 anyways. Too little, too late. Brienne deserves death for screwing up and killing Stannis. If she saves Sansa's life outside of WF, I don't think that'd be too little. Of course that would mean saving Reek's life too, even though he's the reason Bri couldn't help Sansa sooner...but she doesn't know all of that.
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Post by Basil on Jul 4, 2015 22:25:33 GMT
I personally don't think Brienne has done anything wrong (killing Stannis is debatable, I understand that Stannis fans hate her now, but since I'm not one of them, I don't really care). The point is though, no matter what the circumstances were, the fact stands that Brienne did find Arya and Sansa, and she let them both get away. Then, at a crucial moment, she left her post and went after Stannis. We know that Brienne really did try her best to save the girls, but Lady Stoneheart doesn't know that and even if she did, showing mercy to a servant who failed and (in her eyes) even betrayed her, is not what Stoneheart does.
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Post by freeparking on Jul 4, 2015 22:28:56 GMT
She can't keep people safe who are not under her protection. While at Winterfell, Sansa wasn't under Brienne's protection any more than she was while at the Eryie. Brienne has learned that she can't force her protection on the girls. They need to agree to accept her service. The candle was Sansa's way of saying "Yes, I will accept your help now." There was no point in making a move until Brienne saw that Sansa was ready. The last two times she tried just barging didn't work. And Brienne didn't know what Sansa's status was inside the walls. Again, Brienne made Cat promise that she would not hold her back if Stannis came near her. Sansa took too long to light the candle to let Brienne know she was ready for protection, so it was missed. Brienne didn't break her oath there because as far as she knew Sansa still hadn't accepted her service. It is frankly doubtful she could have done anything anyways, but that is a different issue. So you are trying to say Brienne thought Sansa was all right in there with the Boltons? I am saying that she doesn't know what exactly is going on inside Winterfell, and Brienne can't help Sansa if she doesn't want it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2015 22:29:40 GMT
I personally don't think Brienne has done anything wrong (killing Stannis is debatable, I understand that Stannis fans hate her now, but since I'm not one of them, I don't really care). The point is though, no matter what the circumstances were, the fact stands that Brienne did find Arya and Sansa, and she let them both get away. Then, at a crucial moment, she left her post and went after Stannis. We know that Brienne really did try her best to save the girls, but Lady Stoneheart doesn't know that and even if she did, showing mercy to a servant who failed and (in her eyes) even betrayed her, is not what Stoneheart does. This is true. Though I think Bri will have saved Sansa by then and will be looking for Arya again when she heads down to the Riverlands, if LSH is in the show, she wouldn't be satisfied with those answers (if she gave Bri time to give them, that is, after seeing Oathkeeper's Lannister gold).
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Post by freeparking on Jul 4, 2015 22:30:15 GMT
And, moreover, the odds are that Brienne will protect Sansa early on in s6 anyways. Too little, too late. Brienne deserves death for screwing up and killing Stannis. Brienne hasn't done any wrong by killing Stannis. She doesn't acknowledge him as her king.
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Post by Admin on Jul 4, 2015 22:32:19 GMT
I really don't know how you guys don't see it - instead of staying and waiting for the sign she chooses her own SELFISHNESS and goes after Stannis. She is an Oathbreaker and Kingslayer. Not to mention a moron, with that whole candle plan. Brienne has two oaths. One to herself and one to Cat. She is currently unable to fulfill her oath to Cat because Sansa has refused her service. It is pretty much impossible to protect someone who doesn't want you around. Since, at the time of Stannis's arrival, Sansa still hasn't accepted Brienne's service, she goes off to fulfill her other oath. She hasn't broken her oath because has never gotten a chance to fulfill it. Also, Brienne has never viewed Stannis as her king, so I doubt she cares about that. So you are trying to say Brienne thought Sansa was all right in there with the Boltons? I am saying that she doesn't know what exactly is going on inside Winterfell, and Brienne can't help Sansa if she doesn't want it. This is just disturbing. You are making an argument that Brienne was in the right letting Sansa go to marry a Bolton, who are notorious in cruelty and she was justified in just standing there and not taking action when a young girl was being abused.
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Post by freeparking on Jul 4, 2015 22:32:19 GMT
I personally don't think Brienne has done anything wrong (killing Stannis is debatable, I understand that Stannis fans hate her now, but since I'm not one of them, I don't really care). The point is though, no matter what the circumstances were, the fact stands that Brienne did find Arya and Sansa, and she let them both get away. Then, at a crucial moment, she left her post and went after Stannis. We know that Brienne really did try her best to save the girls, but Lady Stoneheart doesn't know that and even if she did, showing mercy to a servant who failed and (in her eyes) even betrayed her, is not what Stoneheart does. Her Lannister sword and Pod would likely be enough for LSH to hang her.
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Post by Admin on Jul 4, 2015 22:33:01 GMT
Too little, too late. Brienne deserves death for screwing up and killing Stannis. Brienne hasn't done any wrong by killing Stannis. She doesn't acknowledge him as her king. Brienne's acknowledgement > the well being of everyone in the realm.
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Post by Basil on Jul 4, 2015 22:36:57 GMT
I personally don't think Brienne has done anything wrong (killing Stannis is debatable, I understand that Stannis fans hate her now, but since I'm not one of them, I don't really care). The point is though, no matter what the circumstances were, the fact stands that Brienne did find Arya and Sansa, and she let them both get away. Then, at a crucial moment, she left her post and went after Stannis. We know that Brienne really did try her best to save the girls, but Lady Stoneheart doesn't know that and even if she did, showing mercy to a servant who failed and (in her eyes) even betrayed her, is not what Stoneheart does. Her Lannister sword and Pod would likely be enough for LSH to hang her. I agree. I'm just saying that Brienne letting Sansa and Arya escape is one of many reasons, why Lady Stoneheart (if she shows up in Season 6) would be pissed at her.
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Post by freeparking on Jul 4, 2015 22:40:27 GMT
Brienne has two oaths. One to herself and one to Cat. She is currently unable to fulfill her oath to Cat because Sansa has refused her service. It is pretty much impossible to protect someone who doesn't want you around. Since, at the time of Stannis's arrival, Sansa still hasn't accepted Brienne's service, she goes off to fulfill her other oath. She hasn't broken her oath because has never gotten a chance to fulfill it. Also, Brienne has never viewed Stannis as her king, so I doubt she cares about that. I am saying that she doesn't know what exactly is going on inside Winterfell, and Brienne can't help Sansa if she doesn't want it. This is just disturbing. You are making an argument that Brienne was in the right letting Sansa go to marry a Bolton, who are notorious in cruelty and she was justified in just standing there and not taking action when a young girl was being abused. Brienne didn't let Sansa do that. Sansa herself chose to do that. Again, it is practically impossible to help someone who doesn't want your help, and she had no idea what was going inside Winterfell. The candle would let Brienne know that things have gotten bad, but until then there is little point in making a move if Sansa would refuse her help yet again while surrounded by people who might cut Brienne down. (See example: Yara coming for Reek.)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2015 22:42:24 GMT
I have to agree on this, I think people are being overly harsh on Brienne. She's no better or worse than she was in the books and LSH wanting to hang her was a misunderstanding of intent since it was Jaime who sent her out there and of course LSH only remembers the Jaime she captured and let go that caused a lot of the mess. Let's not forget Catelyn herself was a major contributor to much of the confusion that fueled the war. Brienne has unfortunately been a pawn as much as many others in this game. I really don't know how you guys don't see it - instead of staying and waiting for the sign she chooses her own SELFISHNESS and goes after Stannis. She is an Oathbreaker and Kingslayer. Not to mention a moron, with that whole candle plan. I'm not saying Brienne made the right choice leaving her eternal candle watching post and going after Stannis. To be honest, having her walk away 10 seconds before Sansa actually managed to get away from her prison and actually light the damn thing felt contrived and hokey to me on the part of the show writers. But it doesn't mean Brienne is a terrible person or an idiot. She's been written badly on the show and I think show watchers have taken some of their angst out on her unreasonably, that's all. Brienne in the books was also annoying and stubborn and doggedly determined but she wasn't stupid or hated that I recall. In fact, it's actually a shame she didn't end up serving Stannis instead of his little brother because honestly her personality is almost identical to his in a frustrating way. Jesus bend a little will ya Stannis/Brienne?! Stannis has been mistreated on the show as well, so the two of them get to be the characters probably most skewed on the show from the books in some ways.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2015 22:42:27 GMT
Brienne hasn't done any wrong by killing Stannis. She doesn't acknowledge him as her king. Brienne's acknowledgement > the well being of everyone in the realm. But without his army Stannis wasn't going to do much good for the realm anymore anyways. And he wasn't trying to survive anymore either. When he slid down against that tree trunk and sat there (after making that great wincing/grunting noise), he was pretty resigned to this fate. I'm sure he expected some Bolton man or another to get him then and was cool with it.
LSH (if she's in) and the BWB wouldn't really care about Stan being killed though (if the subject would even come up with them, which I doubt). Cat never cared much for him to begin with.
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Post by freeparking on Jul 4, 2015 22:42:57 GMT
Brienne hasn't done any wrong by killing Stannis. She doesn't acknowledge him as her king. Brienne's acknowledgement > the well being of everyone in the realm. Brienne is hardly to only one not to acknowledge Stannis of their king.
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Post by Admin on Jul 4, 2015 22:45:11 GMT
This is just disturbing. You are making an argument that Brienne was in the right letting Sansa go to marry a Bolton, who are notorious in cruelty and she was justified in just standing there and not taking action when a young girl was being abused. Brienne didn't let Sansa do that. Sansa herself chose to do that. Again, it is practically impossible to help someone who doesn't want your help, and she had no idea what was going inside Winterfell. The candle would let Brienne know that things have gotten bad, but until then there is little point in making a move if Sansa would refuse her help yet again while surrounded by people who might cut Brienne down. (See example: Yara coming for Reek.) I see. Let's just tell people - when you know a woman is getting raped, wait for a candle sign.
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Post by freeparking on Jul 4, 2015 22:46:24 GMT
Brienne didn't let Sansa do that. Sansa herself chose to do that. Again, it is practically impossible to help someone who doesn't want your help, and she had no idea what was going inside Winterfell. The candle would let Brienne know that things have gotten bad, but until then there is little point in making a move if Sansa would refuse her help yet again while surrounded by people who might cut Brienne down. (See example: Yara coming for Reek.) I see. Let's just tell people - when you know a woman is getting raped, wait for a candle sign. Brienne didn't know what was happening inside the castle. I am not sure how many times I need to type that.
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Post by Admin on Jul 4, 2015 22:46:48 GMT
Brienne's acknowledgement > the well being of everyone in the realm. Brienne is hardly to only one not to acknowledge Stannis of their king. Stannis is the rightful king, which makes her a Kingslayer for the man who danced with her. Awesome.
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Post by Admin on Jul 4, 2015 22:47:31 GMT
I see. Let's just tell people - when you know a woman is getting raped, wait for a candle sign. Brienne didn't know what was happening inside the castle. I am not sure how many times I need to type that. You don't need to type this anymore, in fact please stop because I find your thinking here for the lack of a better word repulsive.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2015 23:03:37 GMT
Brienne is hardly to only one not to acknowledge Stannis of their king. Stannis is the rightful king, which makes her a Kingslayer for the man who danced with her. Awesome. Bri was sworn to Renly, usurper or no, and vowed vengeance. Catelyn recognized it was Bri's duty to kill Stan back in ep. 205. And Stan did too in the end.
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