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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 9:58:51 GMT
Spoilers for TWOW ahead (according to D&D): Shireen is going to die in the new book. On the show, Stannis ordered Shireen to be burned so that the weather could get better.
In the books Shireen is at the Wall with Selyse and Melisandre and Stannis is fighting at Winterfell.. surely he can't give the order. Why would he?
Look at 4:45 onwards. Melisandre repeatedly says that she need's King's blood to do "big stuff". "A great gift requires a great sacrifice". So I think that Shireen will be burned, this will help Melisandre resurrect Jon. If Stannis survives the battle of Winterfell, he's gonna be super pissed.
What are your thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 10:49:19 GMT
There're a few other people that could be sacrificed to bring Jon back btw. A ton of people, including myself thought Shireen would be used for that purpose pre-ep. 509 but now I doubt it. It's very possible that Mel burns Ghost to drive Jon's spirit back into his body as well. And then there's always that wildling with the rather unfortunate (for his surviving-around-Mel-for-very-long prospects) name Gerrick Kingsblood. |
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 28, 2015 10:56:59 GMT
Like we've been discussing for over a week, Stannis can't lose the battle of Winterfell AND burn Shireen in the books. Only one of those can happen, so one way or another D&D screwed him over in the end. I'd be willing to bet that he does lose the battle of Winterfell, but he won't order Shireen's burning himself. I believe he will win the Battle of Ice in the Crofter's Village but will be defeated in the final siege. By then, Mel will have already burned Shireen.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 11:00:26 GMT
Like we've been discussing for over a week, Stannis can't lose the battle of Winterfell AND burn Shireen in the books. Only one of those can happen, so one way or another D&D screwed him over in the end. I'd be willing to bet that he does lose the battle of Winterfell, but he won't order Shireen's burning himself. I believe he will win the Battle of Ice in the Crofter's Village but will be defeated in the final siege. By then, Mel will have already burned Shireen. There is a way for both actually. He'll be defeated at WF, we know that, but he could survive in TWOW and go back to CB and in his desperation sink to that new low. Subsequently he could be killed while his remaining forces mutiny as a result of that burning or by some other nameless someone-or-another... (I wouldn't be surprised actually if Massey or one of his non-Davos officers killed him). As muted an end for Stan as that may seem, it wouldn't surprise me coming from GrrM in the slightest. |
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 28, 2015 11:05:47 GMT
Like we've been discussing for over a week, Stannis can't lose the battle of Winterfell AND burn Shireen in the books. Only one of those can happen, so one way or another D&D screwed him over in the end. I'd be willing to bet that he does lose the battle of Winterfell, but he won't order Shireen's burning himself. I believe he will win the Battle of Ice in the Crofter's Village but will be defeated in the final siege. By then, Mel will have already burned Shireen. There is a way for both actually. He'll be defeated at WF, we know that, but he could survive in TWOW and go back to CB and in his desperation sink to that new low. Subsequently he could be killed while his remaining forces mutiny as a result of that burning or by some other nameless someone-or-another... (I wouldn't be surprised actually if Massey or one of his non-Davos officers killed him). As muted an end for Stan as that may seem, it wouldn't surprise me coming from GrrM in the slightest. It's no timpossible, but GRRM would have to make some serious effort for that to happen. That would consume way too much time, and remember that the blizzard still continues. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 11:07:43 GMT
There is a way for both actually. He'll be defeated at WF, we know that, but he could survive in TWOW and go back to CB and in his desperation sink to that new low. Subsequently he could be killed while his remaining forces mutiny as a result of that burning or by some other nameless someone-or-another... (I wouldn't be surprised actually if Massey or one of his non-Davos officers killed him). As muted an end for Stan as that may seem, it wouldn't surprise me coming from GrrM in the slightest. It's no timpossible, but GRRM would have to make some serious effort for that to happen. That would consume way too much time, and remember that the blizzard still continues. My suspicion is that most of it would happen away from any POV and just be relayed to us later secondhand...but mayhaps I'm being too cynical in my expectations even for early TWOW-level mercilessness. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 11:32:34 GMT
There is a way for both actually. He'll be defeated at WF, we know that, but he could survive in TWOW and go back to CB and in his desperation sink to that new low. Subsequently he could be killed while his remaining forces mutiny as a result of that burning or by some other nameless someone-or-another... (I wouldn't be surprised actually if Massey or one of his non-Davos officers killed him). As muted an end for Stan as that may seem, it wouldn't surprise me coming from GrrM in the slightest. It's no timpossible, but GRRM would have to make some serious effort for that to happen. That would consume way too much time, and remember that the blizzard still continues. This is GRRM, though. You think he's worried about wasting time?   |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 12:04:35 GMT
It's no timpossible, but GRRM would have to make some serious effort for that to happen. That would consume way too much time, and remember that the blizzard still continues. This is GRRM, though. You think he's worried about wasting time? While I laughed at this, I don't think it's fair to say he wasted time when writing AFfC and ADwD. IMO the geographical dividing was stupid, could have just divided the books in half. But the 5-year gap, already lots of writing, Meereeneese Knot, it took time. |
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valyrianshadow
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Post by valyrianshadow on Jun 28, 2015 15:55:13 GMT
I think Shireen will be burned to ressurect Jon but Mel will think she's going to be ressurecting Stannis. He could have truly lost the battle and died but the burning won't work for him.
Or he wins the battle and dies some other way. But my question is if he wins would he stay at WF, keep going south, or back to the Wall? But at this point I don't think he wins because him winning would also probably mean the death/capture of the Bolton's and if we go by the show then that's not happening anytime soon. He probably loses the battle and dies. The only good thing about that is he'll have no part in burning Shireen.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 17:15:48 GMT
This is GRRM, though. You think he's worried about wasting time? While I laughed at this, I don't think it's fair to say he wasted time when writing AFfC and ADwD. IMO the geographical dividing was stupid, could have just divided the books in half. But the 5-year gap, already lots of writing, Meereeneese Knot, it took time. Haha, I meant more wasting time within the story, with the endless travelogues meandering some characters suffer from in both books, rather than wasting irl time writing them. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 17:46:30 GMT
While I laughed at this, I don't think it's fair to say he wasted time when writing AFfC and ADwD. IMO the geographical dividing was stupid, could have just divided the books in half. But the 5-year gap, already lots of writing, Meereeneese Knot, it took time. Haha, I meant more wasting time within the story, with the endless travelogues meandering some characters suffer from in both books, rather than wasting irl time writing them. Ah, that I agree with. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 20:48:12 GMT
Like we've been discussing for over a week, Stannis can't lose the battle of Winterfell AND burn Shireen in the books. Only one of those can happen, so one way or another D&D screwed him over in the end. I'd be willing to bet that he does lose the battle of Winterfell, but he won't order Shireen's burning himself. I believe he will win the Battle of Ice in the Crofter's Village but will be defeated in the final siege. By then, Mel will have already burned Shireen. There is a way for both actually. He'll be defeated at WF, we know that, but he could survive in TWOW and go back to CB and in his desperation sink to that new low. Subsequently he could be killed while his remaining forces mutiny as a result of that burning or by some other nameless someone-or-another... (I wouldn't be surprised actually if Massey or one of his non-Davos officers killed him). As muted an end for Stan as that may seem, it wouldn't surprise me coming from GrrM in the slightest. You both have good points here but I tend to think like Nezzer on this one, that it's either one or the other in the books, not both. I do not believe book Stannis orders his daughter burned alive. I think that was a liberty they took with the show that will cost them some credibility especially when we do find out it was Melisandre and Selyse who decide it as is more predictable. Sure, GRRM is unpredictable as hell, but he's not stupid. He writes with purpose and gives a lot of foreshadowing. He doesn't make last minute 180 degree turnarounds like they chose to do in the last two episodes of the season for Stannis. I'll bet George is holding his tongue on this one because he respects D&D and is happy the show is so wildly successful but I have a theory he's none too happy with some of the changes they made and Stannis in particular. We may one day hear this from him when the books / show is all finished. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 21:08:52 GMT
You both have good points here but I tend to think like Nezzer on this one, that it's either one or the other in the books, not both. I do not believe book Stannis orders his daughter burned alive. I think that was a liberty they took with the show that will cost them some credibility especially when we do find out it was Melisandre and Selyse who decide it as is more predictable. Sure, GRRM is unpredictable as hell, but he's not stupid. He writes with purpose and gives a lot of foreshadowing. He doesn't make last minute 180 degree turnarounds like they chose to do in the last two episodes of the season for Stannis. At the risk of being burnt alive for suggesting this...I don't really think it was a 180 degree turn. Which isn't to say that I expected him to do it because it took me by surprise too but I do think it was set up. Particularly here in ep. 210.
"You will betray the men serving you, you will betray your family..." I really don't know what else that could mean. Of course Shireen hadn't even been cast then but I always thought that that line wasn't just something they'd made up, it had something to do with something GrrM had told them. Or at the very least with a plot point that they were building up to.
And even in his scene with Mel in ep. 507 which led so many of us to believe he'd never consider it, I think we were all giving him too much credit then. All he actually says to Mel is, "She's my daughter. Get out." He doesn't say "no" categorically and he doesn't send Mel away for suggesting it or anything like that. He just broods again, which actually in hindsight shows that even then he's considering it. Prior to that he says, "There must be another way..." which isn't the sort of thing you say if its an option you'd never consider in the first place. He really isn't drawing a line in the sand here; he's just trying to back away from that decision or stall it.
I know someone's liable to throw a shoe at me here for making a post like this...
... but there you have it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 21:57:52 GMT
At the risk of being burnt alive for suggesting this...I don't really think it was a 180 degree turn. Which isn't to say that I expected him to do it because it took me by surprise too but I do think it was set up. Particularly here in ep. 210. "You will betray the men serving you, you will betray your family..." I really don't know what else that could mean. Of course Shireen hadn't even been cast then but I always thought that that line wasn't just something they'd made up, it had something to do with something GrrM had told them. Or at the very least with a plot point that they were building up to. And even in his scene with Mel in ep. 507 which led so many of us to believe he'd never consider it, I think we were all giving him too much credit then. All he actually says to Mel is, "She's my daughter. Get out." He doesn't say "no" categorically and he doesn't send Mel away for suggesting it or anything like that. He just broods again, which actually in hindsight shows that even then he's considering it. Prior to that he says, "There must be another way..." which isn't the sort of thing you say if its an option you'd never consider in the first place. He really isn't drawing a line in the sand here; he's just trying to back away from that decision or stall it. I know someone's liable to throw a shoe at me here for making a post like this... but there you have it. I won't throw a shoe at you (even though it's hilarious at Bush) - it's a valid argument all the way around. It's possible most of us were strongly denying it or conveniently forgot the warning signs. I know I did, I'm not ashamed to admit when Melisandre gave him that prophecy I just threw it out the window with most of her other religious garbage. The fact is she does see things in the flames but half the time she's right on the money and half the time she's not. Well ok maybe it's more like 60/40 or 80/20 who really knows for sure! I still think they could have done a lot more to prepare the audience for his eventual turnaround in deciding to burn Shireen which sealed his fate. Maybe assassinating Renly actually sealed his fate since Brienne is the one who kills him. Maybe he was destined to die in battle anyways in the book and they just decided to use Brienne as a convenient plot device to tie in the karma thing. But regardless of all that, what's done is done and we have to move on from it and learn to be more observant next time for sure! Now you're making me want to go re-watch every single word that Red witch said to Jon Snow since I have to glean some hope somewhere!  |
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Post by day dreamer on Jun 29, 2015 4:04:34 GMT
I don't think Stannis will order Shireen to burn at all. I think Mel will read the pink letter, panic, and burn Shireen to bring Stannis back. Maybe that brings back Jon, maybe something else does. Maybe she finds out Stannis is indeed alive while Shireen is burning and that drives Selyse to suicide?
There's a lot of good theories here. I'm probably wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 8:49:26 GMT
I don't think Stannis will order Shireen to burn at all. I think Mel will read the pink letter, panic, and burn Shireen to bring Stannis back. Maybe that brings back Jon, maybe something else does. Maybe she finds out Stannis is indeed alive while Shireen is burning and that drives Selyse to suicide? There's a lot of good theories here. I'm probably wrong. Do we have any POV's at the wall atm? Jon is dead so he probably won't witness the event. I'm feeling more and more confident that Stannis doesn't burn his daughter in the books.. that's not a good sign. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 8:50:23 GMT
I don't think Stannis will order Shireen to burn at all. I think Mel will read the pink letter, panic, and burn Shireen to bring Stannis back. Maybe that brings back Jon, maybe something else does. Maybe she finds out Stannis is indeed alive while Shireen is burning and that drives Selyse to suicide? There's a lot of good theories here. I'm probably wrong. Do we have any POV's at the wall atm? Jon is dead so he probably won't witness the event. I'm feeling more and more confident that Stannis doesn't burn his daughter in the books.. that's not a good sign. Mel's gonna be our TWOW Wall POV. Though I wouldn't be surprised if we heard from Ghost too. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 8:51:54 GMT
Do we have any POV's at the wall atm? Jon is dead so he probably won't witness the event. I'm feeling more and more confident that Stannis doesn't burn his daughter in the books.. that's not a good sign. Mel's gonna be our TWOW Wall POV. Though I wouldn't be surprised if we heard from Ghost too. Good point. That might be quite sick to read about Shireen's burning from Melisandre's perspective.. |
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Post by Enid on Jun 30, 2015 8:35:06 GMT
I'm not even sure Selyse will allow Shireen to be used as a sacrifice in the books. Yes, she is really uptight and adores Melisandre, but she also tells everyone who listens that Shireen is Stannis heir and she needs to be protected, she always keeps Shireen close to her, and Shireen feels safe with her, like when they arrived to Castle Black and saw Wun Wun, Shireen got closer to her mother when she got scared. I don't recall bookSelyse ever saying that Shireen is sinful or that her greyscale was a punishment sent by R'hllor because she is wicked.
So IMO Melisandre would have a hard time convincing Selyse of the need to burn Shireen. And Stannis too of course. It would have to be a really desperate situation. Like Stannis losing the Battle of Ice and the Watch kicking out Selyse and all of Stannis men after Jon "dies". Which is not impossible I guess, but GRRM would have to work his ass off to convince me Stannis and Selyse are even open to the idea.
That is also why I said in another thread that I think the show made Stannis more religious than he is in the books, I know not everyone agrees with that idea, but I still believe it's true. In the show Stannis burns people for not believing in R'hllor, in the books he does it because those people betrayed him, and the show has included scenes of Stannis looking into the fires and seeing whatever Melisandre wanted him to see, or the infamous scene in which he basically begs Mel not to leave him when she goes after Gendry. IMO the show did that, and also the whole "Selyse doesn't like Shireen", to make the sacrifice scene more believable. It didn't work, but I still think it would have been even more unbelievable if they had been 100% faithful to the book version of the characters.
Considering all that, I think that Melisandre will have to ignore both Stannis and Selyse's wishes to sacrifice Shireen. Maybe both of them die, or Mel uses her influence over the "queen's men" to do it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 9:06:43 GMT
True Enid, in the books Selyse doesn't dislike Shireen, and IIRC is fond of her. I will never forgive that D&D didn't gave Selyse a fake moustach. |
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