valyrianshadow
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"Seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt."
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Post by valyrianshadow on Jun 1, 2015 20:25:50 GMT
Hahaha if she takes Tyrion with her I'm gonna throw up please no.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 20:26:49 GMT
Hahaha if she takes Tyrion with her I'm gonna throw up please no. Oh god this is such a horrid thought. If that happens 509 is getting a 1 from me
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Post by Enid on Jun 1, 2015 20:29:36 GMT
Poor Tyrion, riding a dragon has been a dream of his since he was a child
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 20:35:22 GMT
Some Daario Tyrion confrontation would be possible I think. Daario will be super selfconfident and Tyrion will tell him right off.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 20:45:10 GMT
I really enjoyed these two finally meeting and I have to wonder how it will play out in the books. As I said in the episode discussion thread, I think these two will be really good together but will inevitably split up. I mean they want different things, right? The only riff I could see coming between them is Jaime. Not sure how the show would handle it though, since Dany has basically admitted Aerys deserved what he got. Interesting that in the show it's Jaime that says he wants to kill Tyrion, and not vice versa.
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Post by King Tommen on Jun 1, 2015 20:49:13 GMT
I found it interesting that Tyrion stated again his tight relationship with Jaime. This is a clear departure from the books (without the Tysha reveal) and the fact that they keep emphasizing that Tyrion still looks at Jaime as someone he truly trusts makes it seem like it will play into whenever they do see each other again.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 21:27:42 GMT
I found it interesting that Tyrion stated again his tight relationship with Jaime. This is a clear departure from the books (without the Tysha reveal) and the fact that they keep emphasizing that Tyrion still looks at Jaime as someone he truly trusts makes it seem like it will play into whenever they do see each other again. They've reversed the roles actually. Remember Jaime telling Bronn on their voyage that if he ever saw Tyrion again, he'd split him in two? I think that's been done intentionally to throw the audience off a bit and also as you've pointed out, the Tysha thing hasn't been played up much at all (I'm relieved we don't have "Where do Whores Go?" all the time to be honest). Back onto the topic of Daenerys and Tyrion though ... 1. Tyrion's most likely going to take over as "Hand of the Queen" when she takes off on her hiatus. This will give him plenty of time to establish some groundwork and do what he does best, much like he did in King's Landing during his short tenure as Hand. 2. The Wheel speech has definitely been interpreted differently by different people depending on whether they love or hate Dany. That's fine but anyone reading this needs to at least try to have some balanced perspective and remember that Dany is going through a metamorphosis stage the same as Jon, Arya and now even Sansa have been going through. All the "children" we've known since the beginning of the series are "Growing Up" and all have had their mistakes and triumphs. The judgemental hate against Daenerys has always been odd to me considering she's gone through the same phases as most of the other primary characters so far. Love it or hate it, she's a force to be reckoned with and her dragons are the one thing that may end up (I hope) being a counter to the real threat in Westeros as we just saw in Hardhome. She's necessary and she has a lot to learn to make it happen yet. People think Dany's 'journey' has been slogging through slaver cities. It's not. Her journey starts when she stops feeling sorry for herself in the Dothraki Sea, wakes up, and makes a decision to change. Her Khalasar will play a role in that is my guess.
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serpounce
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Post by serpounce on Jun 1, 2015 22:26:55 GMT
I found it interesting that Tyrion stated again his tight relationship with Jaime. This is a clear departure from the books (without the Tysha reveal) and the fact that they keep emphasizing that Tyrion still looks at Jaime as someone he truly trusts makes it seem like it will play into whenever they do see each other again. They've reversed the roles actually. Remember Jaime telling Bronn on their voyage that if he ever saw Tyrion again, he'd split him in two? Aye, and I really wonder why the switch? Especially since I expect Tyrion to be over his grudge with Jaime by the time he gets back to Westeros. Perhaps it's to give Jaime something to include in his redemption arc on the show?
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Post by King Tommen on Jun 1, 2015 22:31:48 GMT
I'm not sold that Jaime feels that strongly about Tyrion. I think he was saying that for Bronn's benefit since that's what's expected of him. He certainly didn't seem that broken up about Tyrion's actions when Cersei and him were discussing it at the start of the season. It's not like Jaime was a huge fan of Tywin either, I don't see that being a major roadblock for him if he and Tyrion were meeting again later on.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 22:42:21 GMT
They've reversed the roles actually. Remember Jaime telling Bronn on their voyage that if he ever saw Tyrion again, he'd split him in two? Aye, and I really wonder why the switch? Especially since I expect Tyrion to be over his grudge with Jaime by the time he gets back to Westeros. Perhaps it's to give Jaime something to include in his redemption arc on the show? It's either been done to throw the audience off and think that Jaime now hates Tyrion (which should be obvious from his look in that scene that he still cares very much for his little brother) - or it's been done to give Tyrion's character on the show more hopeful reason to return to Westeros with Dany. He has bridges to mend, no? If they want you to think Jaime hates Tyrion for killing Tywin, then that will enable some drama to play out when he eventually returns to Westeros. Maybe Jaime's going to end up killing Cersei (he could be the Valonqar) and the two brothers will be the only remaining icons of House Lannister in order to rebuild it anew and without the bad seeds that destroyed it?
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serpounce
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Post by serpounce on Jun 1, 2015 23:40:12 GMT
Oh I agree. What I was more or less pointing at is that I don't see Dany taking his advice unless it fits her plan, even if it is destructive. If she does not heed to his words about finding common ground, it seems that he would become rather uncomfortable with her. Or maybe not. "Break the Wheel" - Yes I see that as well, but the way she says it suggests that she plans on eliminating (killing/executing the nobility) the houses and creating something of an absolute monarchy more common with Louis XIV's France. I think you completely misunderstood the scene. But just one point I'll make, if she's intent on killing all the spokes on the wheel, she's intent on killing her own house, which by the way is all but dead. They were part of the spokes she was speaking of. Of course the spokes are the system that crushes everything and everyone who doesn't have the power to stop from being crushed by it, much like the slaving wheel in Slaver's Bay. I think you completely misunderstood the wheel speech. It was not Dany stating her intent to kill her enemies, and even if it were, so what? Jon's situation is entirely different wherein he has no choice but to forge a bond with a previous enemy in order to defeat a common one. Jon would absolutely not be so amiable with the wildlings if the situation wasn't so desperate. The wheel speech was Dany stating her intent to destroy the system, not the people in it, because the system is detrimental to the commonfolk, who are the people she has been fighting for since the day she sacked Astapor. I think you're viewing this scene from quite a biased perspective, which has coloured your interpretation a little for the worse. Interesting discussion. I'd say this is the rift that will come between Dany and Tyrion. Tyrion is far more experienced, calculated and diplomatic when it comes to ruling. Dany is moving toward embracing her heritage: Fire and Blood. That's where she's headed in the books and on the show. Although she wants to help the small folk and those who are oppressed, she wants to rule her home more than anything. That cannot happen without support from the Great Houses. That is the wheel. Tyrion is telling her to think of her experiences to date and she ignores it and says she will break the system. She mentions this after Tyrion asks her how she will bring the Great Houses over to her side. So yes, she is being rather absolutist in her view. Dare I say she's channeling Stannis here and saying she cares not for making alliances but expects Westeros to bend to her rule, unquestioningly or they will be crushed. And Tyrion understands the folly of it. Dany should. She's already tried it and hasn't been successful. She's back pedaled but after her trip to the Dothraki Sea, she will not back pedal anymore but crush those who are not with her. That will not work for her in Westeros, just as it hasn't worked in Essos. Jon does seem to have learned more about alliances and gaining support from other leaders. His biggest failing was winning over the small folk (the everyday brothers of the Watch) and not having more friends and advisors in his inner circle. Hell, he doesn't have an inner circle at the moment. That one is much easier rectified. As much as I love Dany (who can't love her story!) she's being set up for failure the more she embraces her Targaryen ways. If she does not listen to Tyrion's council and temper her use of blood and fire, she won't need to look back to be lost.
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Post by janicia on Jun 2, 2015 0:27:56 GMT
When Dany's people revolt, Dany abandons her rule, and her dragons start wrecking havoc, won't that cause Tyrion to rethink his service to Dany? I could see him noping the heck out of that.
Or maybe he'll understand where she was coming from and help her adjust when she comes back? A reprise of the "I never said you were perfect" exchange?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 0:38:48 GMT
When Dany's people revolt, Dany abandons her rule, and her dragons start wrecking havoc, won't that cause Tyrion to rethink his service to Dany? I could see him noping the heck out of that. Or maybe he'll understand where she was coming from and help her adjust when she comes back? A reprise of the "I never said you were perfect" exchange? Probably not, since all of that shit is likely to hit the fan after she's left (aside from the SotH attack, which I doubt he would hold her responsible for).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 9:16:03 GMT
Oh I agree. What I was more or less pointing at is that I don't see Dany taking his advice unless it fits her plan, even if it is destructive. If she does not heed to his words about finding common ground, it seems that he would become rather uncomfortable with her. Or maybe not. "Break the Wheel" - Yes I see that as well, but the way she says it suggests that she plans on eliminating (killing/executing the nobility) the houses and creating something of an absolute monarchy more common with Louis XIV's France. I think you completely misunderstood the scene. But just one point I'll make, if she's intent on killing all the spokes on the wheel, she's intent on killing her own house, which by the way is all but dead. They were part of the spokes she was speaking of. Of course the spokes are the system that crushes everything and everyone who doesn't have the power to stop from being crushed by it, much like the slaving wheel in Slaver's Bay. I think you completely misunderstood the wheel speech. It was not Dany stating her intent to kill her enemies, and even if it were, so what? Jon's situation is entirely different wherein he has no choice but to forge a bond with a previous enemy in order to defeat a common one. Jon would absolutely not be so amiable with the wildlings if the situation wasn't so desperate. The wheel speech was Dany stating her intent to destroy the system, not the people in it, because the system is detrimental to the commonfolk, who are the people she has been fighting for since the day she sacked Astapor. I think you're viewing this scene from quite a biased perspective, which has coloured your interpretation a little for the worse. Interesting discussion. I'd say this is the rift that will come between Dany and Tyrion. Tyrion is far more experienced, calculated and diplomatic when it comes to ruling. Dany is moving toward embracing her heritage: Fire and Blood. That's where she's headed in the books and on the show. Although she wants to help the small folk and those who are oppressed, she wants to rule her home more than anything. That cannot happen without support from the Great Houses. That is the wheel. Tyrion is telling her to think of her experiences to date and she ignores it and says she will break the system. She mentions this after Tyrion asks her how she will bring the Great Houses over to her side. So yes, she is being rather absolutist in her view. Dare I say she's channeling Stannis here and saying she cares not for making alliances but expects Westeros to bend to her rule, unquestioningly or they will be crushed. And Tyrion understands the folly of it. Dany should. She's already tried it and hasn't been successful. She's back pedaled but after her trip to the Dothraki Sea, she will not back pedal anymore but crush those who are not with her. That will not work for her in Westeros, just as it hasn't worked in Essos. Jon does seem to have learned more about alliances and gaining support from other leaders. His biggest failing was winning over the small folk (the everyday brothers of the Watch) and not having more friends and advisors in his inner circle. Hell, he doesn't have an inner circle at the moment. That one is much easier rectified. As much as I love Dany (who can't love her story!) she's being set up for failure the more she embraces her Targaryen ways. If she does not listen to Tyrion's council and temper her use of blood and fire, she won't need to look back to be lost. I think that too many people have misinterpreted Dany's ADWD arc. They see Fire and Blood towards the end of the chapter and completely ignore everything that proceeded it. By the way the last words Dany utters in the chapter is "to go forward, I must go back" to me this denotes some kind of reflection. During ADWD Dany compromises almost everything she has been fighting for. She chains up her dragons (a metaphor for chaining herself up) and begins to give up most of her power to the point where at her wedding reception she sees a slave markets taking place right outside her gates. By the time she reaches Daznak's she realizes, as she wearing her pearl crusted tokar, that slowly she is becoming a Harpy. As she watching the exploitation of the fighters for blood spots reaching a horrific level, she realizes that she can't be the kind of person who just lets things be. She rips out the tokar, her floppy ears, and is confronted with Drogon and she has to decide to either completely let go of being a dragon or confront her dragon side. She decides to confront it. In the Dothraki sea as she thinks of returning once again to Meereen, she has her epiphany and realizes that she can't be a Harpy, she can't just let people be exploited, she's a dragon. And in Dany's world a dragon is a protector a savior. This is of course in complete opposition to what dragons had once represented in that part of the world, which was the symbol of oppression. Dany's taking her heritage and turning it upside down, where once dragons were used to enslave, she is now using them to free. Comparing Dany's current arc to Jon's current arc with respect to this, doesn't really work. Where as Jon is trying to bring into the fold a formally oppressed minority, Dany did that 2 SEASONS AGO. She as a member of the "1%" decided that the many shouldn't be oppressed by the few and did something about it. Now there is your comparison, both Dany and Jon have taken the traditional practices of their ancestors, the Valyrians with their slaving and the Starks and Nights Watch and their waring with the Wildings, and turn them on their heads. They are both trying to change and rectify what their ancestors once did. As for Dany and Tyrion, like a mentioned in my previous post their interest are very much aligned. Trust me when I tell you that after the events at Daznak's Tyrion is 't going to be feeling very compromising toward the SotH. He's not going to take it well that this upper class tried to murder him. There is a time for compromise but Meereen is not the that time. Dany is going to have to work with the Dothraki and they are slasher but I can almost guarantee you that those who are going to follow her wont be slaving anymore. She he can work with people she doesn't like but there has to be a give, the only thing the Meereen gave in is stop slavery and not entirely by the way. In Westeros it'll be a different story because things aren't as black and white as in aslaver's Bay. I see Dany like Aegon the Conqueror she'll take Tyron's advice on trying to make alliances but if the houses won't align the theyll get Fire and Blood. Of course a lot of this will be moot because as we know winter is coming and with them a zombie apocalypse. And as Tyrion said in ADWD, Dany is above all a rescuer, she will leave the Game of Thrones to go help fight tthe Others. ETA: I forgot to mention that if your go back and watch the conversation between Tyrion and Dany when she begins her spokes on a wheel speech, he says to her "it's a beautiful dream, stopping the wheel. You're not the first person who's ever dreamt it." I think it's heavily implied that he himself has dreamed of stopping the wheel. Not in the I was to give the common folks more right way, but in the lets stop this constant power struggle that keeps destroy those who can't help themselves. I think he agrees with this philosophy more than you think.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 9:27:00 GMT
I really enjoyed these two finally meeting and I have to wonder how it will play out in the books. As I said in the episode discussion thread, I think these two will be really good together but will inevitably split up. I mean they want different things, right? The only riff I could see coming between them is Jaime. Not sure how the show would handle it though, since Dany has basically admitted Aerys deserved what he got. Interesting that in the show it's Jaime that says he wants to kill Tyrion, and not vice versa. She seemed annoyed when Tyrion mentioned Jaime but she was calm, I don't think she'll be beyond listening to reason. Especially because as you say she knows what Aerys was.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 9:50:22 GMT
Hahaha if she takes Tyrion with her I'm gonna throw up please no. Oh god this is such a horrid thought. If that happens 509 is getting a 1 from me Gods please no! This is Dany's moment, Tyrion doesn't need to be there. Also, I don't want to see him riding a dragon, because it'll be so wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 9:52:42 GMT
Aye, and I really wonder why the switch? Especially since I expect Tyrion to be over his grudge with Jaime by the time he gets back to Westeros. Perhaps it's to give Jaime something to include in his redemption arc on the show? It's either been done to throw the audience off and think that Jaime now hates Tyrion (which should be obvious from his look in that scene that he still cares very much for his little brother) - or it's been done to give Tyrion's character on the show more hopeful reason to return to Westeros with Dany. He has bridges to mend, no? If they want you to think Jaime hates Tyrion for killing Tywin, then that will enable some drama to play out when he eventually returns to Westeros. Maybe Jaime's going to end up killing Cersei (he could be the Valonqar) and the two brothers will be the only remaining icons of House Lannister in order to rebuild it anew and without the bad seeds that destroyed it? The only thing is, that I fear Jaime will die soon after he kills Cersei. Like I can see him mending fences with Tyrion after Cersei's death and then dying of something or other.
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valyrianshadow
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"Seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt."
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Post by valyrianshadow on Jun 2, 2015 13:31:27 GMT
Maybe it was just me and I have to watch it again but did anyone else think Dany accepted Tyrion too easily? Hello my family killed yours but I killed my father so we're even. Okay advise me! Wouldn't you not trust someone that killed their own father even less? I mean yeah she doesn't fully trust him yet but seemed kinda weird. But again maybe on rewatch it'll be different.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 13:34:48 GMT
Maybe it was just me and I have to watch it again but did anyone else think Dany accepted Tyrion too easily? Hello my family killed yours but I killed my father so we're even. Okay advise me! Wouldn't you not trust someone that killed their own father even less? I mean yeah she doesn't fully trust him yet but seemed kinda weird. But again maybe on rewatch it'll be different. It probably was too quickly but I think it was more a manner of expediting the story than a reflection on the characters. However, with Dany you don't always know as she's kind of sneaky so she might be testing him too.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 13:59:34 GMT
Maybe it was just me and I have to watch it again but did anyone else think Dany accepted Tyrion too easily? Hello my family killed yours but I killed my father so we're even. Okay advise me! Wouldn't you not trust someone that killed their own father even less? I mean yeah she doesn't fully trust him yet but seemed kinda weird. But again maybe on rewatch it'll be different. I'm guessing it had to be quick since Dany will be hauling ass out of there next week and she needs to have accepted him for him to be able to do whatever D&D want him to do while she's chillin' in the Dothraki Sea.
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