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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2015 23:55:02 GMT
Another parallel last night: Jon seeks out Maester Aemon's advice regarding what he should do about a difficult situation, this is paralleled but Dany seeking out Missandei's advice about what she should do about a difficult citation. Both of their advices advice them to follow their instincts. Another great thread I've somehow missed for awhile - glad you have kept it updated and I finally caught it on the recent posts radar! This is one of my favorite types of show discussions in The Walking Dead too - seeing what little 'hints and clues' the show writers have put in to tie certain characters together or to foreshadow things to come such as deaths and important events. They put a lot of little easter eggs in. The additional parallels they've added for Jon and Dany are very nice and many aren't anything from the books so when you group them together like this, it makes a pretty convincing and compelling argument that somehow their lives are going to be intertwined even if not on a personal relationship level. It may end up with dual ruler-ship or even the 7 kingdoms started over from scratch with the 'kids' of each of the houses we've followed along with over the years as they grow up. Maybe GRRM intends for the whole thing to be wiped clean and new kingdoms and alliances forged for a new Westeros not built around the noble houses that were. Who knows! Only George does for certain from here on out! I especially liked this one I quoted you on - from the last episode. The significance of both Dany and Jon seeking out advice from someone they respect and care about was pretty big and hard to miss the connection and similarities. In both cases they were advised to do what their heart and leadership instincts tells them is the right thing to do and not necessarily what others have told them they should do. In both cases, their decisions will lead to bad things happening but it doesn't have to mean they were bad mistakes. It means they both will reach a turning point that is very significant in their lives forever going forward. The old person they were dies and the new ruler is born. I am absolutely so very excited for this stage of the story to finally be approaching, at least on the show! I can't say for what will happen in the books but the show ... I'm clinging to it now for dear life. This has been something I've pondered and dreamed about finally seeing/learning since the books began!
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 12:49:40 GMT
Biggest parallel this series? The set up. Tyrion and Varys joining Dany while Stannis and Jon seem paired up. Also the whole Little finger's betting...Great parallel between the two stories. The bit about marriages is a strong link too. Dany uniting the slaves and former masters and Jon uniting the free folk and Nights watch by allying with an old friend whose loyalties are questionable. Yeah, they are massively paralleled, this series especially. I didn't really notice that, both Dany and Jon having someone from the outside joining them in order to help them. What do you mean by the Little finger's betting? Definitely a lot of parallels. There is this very interesting article in Vox discussing their leadership: On Game of Thrones, it's rare — and extraordinary — when rulers put their people firstGreat thread. I've really enjoyed reading through this. Thanks for posting Thanks! Another parallel last night: Jon seeks out Maester Aemon's advice regarding what he should do about a difficult situation, this is paralleled but Dany seeking out Missandei's advice about what she should do about a difficult citation. Both of their advices advice them to follow their instincts. Another great thread I've somehow missed for awhile - glad you have kept it updated and I finally caught it on the recent posts radar! This is one of my favorite types of show discussions in The Walking Dead too - seeing what little 'hints and clues' the show writers have put in to tie certain characters together or to foreshadow things to come such as deaths and important events. They put a lot of little easter eggs in. The additional parallels they've added for Jon and Dany are very nice and many aren't anything from the books so when you group them together like this, it makes a pretty convincing and compelling argument that somehow their lives are going to be intertwined even if not on a personal relationship level. It may end up with dual ruler-ship or even the 7 kingdoms started over from scratch with the 'kids' of each of the houses we've followed along with over the years as they grow up. Maybe GRRM intends for the whole thing to be wiped clean and new kingdoms and alliances forged for a new Westeros not built around the noble houses that were. Who knows! Only George does for certain from here on out! I especially liked this one I quoted you on - from the last episode. The significance of both Dany and Jon seeking out advice from someone they respect and care about was pretty big and hard to miss the connection and similarities. In both cases they were advised to do what their heart and leadership instincts tells them is the right thing to do and not necessarily what others have told them they should do. In both cases, their decisions will lead to bad things happening but it doesn't have to mean they were bad mistakes. It means they both will reach a turning point that is very significant in their lives forever going forward. The old person they were dies and the new ruler is born. I am absolutely so very excited for this stage of the story to finally be approaching, at least on the show! I can't say for what will happen in the books but the show ... I'm clinging to it now for dear life. This has been something I've pondered and dreamed about finally seeing/learning since the books began! Thanks! There are actually a lot of parallels in the books as well. I'm currently working on a series of essays discussing their books parallels for a re-read project I'm participating in. I'll post the essays here as well, if you all want to discuss them as well. Regarding the show and book parallels, there is definitely a connection between the two that goes beyond that of them being the last two Targaryen, I believe. Whether it's just familiar or it'll have romantic tones as well, I don't know at least for now it's speculation. Learning from our mistakes is a really important life lesson that both Dany and Jon learn in ADWD or at least we hope they learn. It's part of growing up, you should follow your instincts sometimes they'll lead you on the right direction and sometimes they'll lead you astray. But how are you to know if you do not try. Like you, I can't wait for the end of the season to see how they handle this leadership growing pains for Dany and Jon. While thinking about the parallels the other day I also notice a sort of parallel. Both burned the two people they loved the most in pyres and while ehen Dany burns Drogo in a pyre she walks into it, while when Jon burns Ygritte in a pyre he walks away from it. I haven't noted all the parallels throughout all the seasons, just the ones I remember. I don't really re-watch past season so I've forgotten the smaller details. When I have time I'll re-watch the past season.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 12:53:42 GMT
Biggest parallel this series? The set up. Tyrion and Varys joining Dany while Stannis and Jon seem paired up. Also the whole Little finger's betting...Great parallel between the two stories. The bit about marriages is a strong link too. Dany uniting the slaves and former masters and Jon uniting the free folk and Nights watch by allying with an old friend whose loyalties are questionable. Yeah, they are massively paralleled, this series especially. I didn't really notice that, both Dany and Jon having someone from the outside joining them in order to help them. What do you mean by the Little finger's betting? Definitely a lot of parallels. There is this very interesting article in Vox discussing their leadership: On Game of Thrones, it's rare — and extraordinary — when rulers put their people firstGreat thread. I've really enjoyed reading through this. Thanks for posting Thanks! Another great thread I've somehow missed for awhile - glad you have kept it updated and I finally caught it on the recent posts radar! This is one of my favorite types of show discussions in The Walking Dead too - seeing what little 'hints and clues' the show writers have put in to tie certain characters together or to foreshadow things to come such as deaths and important events. They put a lot of little easter eggs in. The additional parallels they've added for Jon and Dany are very nice and many aren't anything from the books so when you group them together like this, it makes a pretty convincing and compelling argument that somehow their lives are going to be intertwined even if not on a personal relationship level. It may end up with dual ruler-ship or even the 7 kingdoms started over from scratch with the 'kids' of each of the houses we've followed along with over the years as they grow up. Maybe GRRM intends for the whole thing to be wiped clean and new kingdoms and alliances forged for a new Westeros not built around the noble houses that were. Who knows! Only George does for certain from here on out! I especially liked this one I quoted you on - from the last episode. The significance of both Dany and Jon seeking out advice from someone they respect and care about was pretty big and hard to miss the connection and similarities. In both cases they were advised to do what their heart and leadership instincts tells them is the right thing to do and not necessarily what others have told them they should do. In both cases, their decisions will lead to bad things happening but it doesn't have to mean they were bad mistakes. It means they both will reach a turning point that is very significant in their lives forever going forward. The old person they were dies and the new ruler is born. I am absolutely so very excited for this stage of the story to finally be approaching, at least on the show! I can't say for what will happen in the books but the show ... I'm clinging to it now for dear life. This has been something I've pondered and dreamed about finally seeing/learning since the books began! Thanks! There are actually a lot of parallels in the books as well. I'm currently working on a series of essays discussing their books parallels for a re-read project I'm participating in. I'll post the essays here as well, if you all want to discuss them as well. Regarding the show and book parallels, there is definitely a connection between the two that goes beyond that of them being the last two Targaryen, I believe. Whether it's just familiar or it'll have romantic tones as well, I don't know at least for now it's speculation. Learning from our mistakes is a really important life lesson that both Dany and Jon learn in ADWD or at least we hope they learn. It's part of growing up, you should follow your instincts sometimes they'll lead you on the right direction and sometimes they'll lead you astray. But how are you to know if you do not try. Like you, I can't wait for the end of the season to see how they handle this leadership growing pains for Dany and Jon. While thinking about the parallels the other day I also notice a sort of parallel. Both burned the two people they loved the most in pyres and while ehen Dany burns Drogo in a pyre she walks into it, while when Jon burns Ygritte in a pyre he walks away from it. I haven't noted all the parallels throughout all the seasons, just the ones I remember. I don't really re-watch past season so I've forgotten the smaller details. When I have time I'll re-watch the past season. By Littlefingers betting I mean theres kind of a parallel with Varys going east and Littlefinger going north. I think that if the hinting is right, and LF does know about R+L, then maybe he positioning himself with Jon as a potential candidate for the throne. It just kinda stuck out to me.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 12:53:44 GMT
Sorry for all the double posts. I think theres an issue with Taptalk...
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 18:29:00 GMT
They both take on civil rights issues (for want of a better term) that most other nobility in the world of GoT don't care about because they are both put in the position of being one of the persecuted groups: Dany and slaves and Jon and the Wildlings.
And we're not quite there yet, but it seems they both have to pay for completely rethinking the status quo.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 16:42:29 GMT
They both take on civil rights issues (for want of a better term) that most other nobility in the world of GoT don't care about because they are both put in the position of being one of the persecuted groups: Dany and slaves and Jon and the Wildlings. And before that Jon was looked down upon as a bastard and Dany was sold to a scary husband.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 19:03:41 GMT
They both take on civil rights issues (for want of a better term) that most other nobility in the world of GoT don't care about because they are both put in the position of being one of the persecuted groups: Dany and slaves and Jon and the Wildlings. And we're not quite there yet, but it seems they both have to pay for completely rethinking the status quo. Good one! This is actually true in the books as well. I'll add it to the OP.
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Post by jonishenrytudor on Jun 1, 2015 17:02:23 GMT
I'm still kind of betting on Dany going mad and Jon having to kill her instead of ruling the Seven Kingdoms with her. In the books at least, the show they will probably rule together. I agree. I actually see the second Dance being between Jon and Dany. Not the other option.....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 10:33:53 GMT
Maybe Jon will come back an undead monster, and Dany will have to kill him.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 11:50:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 10:00:18 GMT
I was thinking of where to post my thoughts on this and thought of you're thread moiaf! *warning spoilers for season 6*
Jon and Dany have shared many similarities in their leadership, bad decisions and have both suffered great losses and betrayals. In episode 2 we see Jon awake from the dead, people fear him and think him Godly. Danaerys had her moments, stepping out of the fire in season 1, and now season 6. She is feared and admired in her own right. But as the characters start to become closer together, connected by similar experiences, i think we'll get even more of an idea of the parallels the characters share.
There are differences between the two characters that i think are worth mentioning. Whilst Dany chose to step into the fire, Jon did not choose to be 'reborn'. And i think taking away the choice from these situations will be the defining characteristic that in essence makes them somehow opposites. Two sides of the same coin if you like. This will affect the decisions the characters make going forward.
Whilst Dany revels in her victory and believes to be doing right, Jon was very sulky and just wants to run away basically. However both of them now face huge enemies and it will be interesting to see how both of them handle it.
i don't even know what i want to say lol
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 14:24:44 GMT
I was thinking of where to post my thoughts on this and thought of you're thread moiaf! *warning spoilers for season 6*Jon and Dany have shared many similarities in their leadership, bad decisions and have both suffered great losses and betrayals. In episode 2 we see Jon awake from the dead, people fear him and think him Godly. Danaerys had her moments, stepping out of the fire in season 1, and now season 6. She is feared and admired in her own right. But as the characters start to become closer together, connected by similar experiences, i think we'll get even more of an idea of the parallels the characters share. There are differences between the two characters that i think are worth mentioning. Whilst Dany chose to step into the fire, Jon did not choose to be 'reborn'. And i think taking away the choice from these situations will be the defining characteristic that in essence makes them somehow opposites. Two sides of the same coin if you like. This will affect the decisions the characters make going forward.Whilst Dany revels in her victory and believes to be doing right, Jon was very sulky and just wants to run away basically. However both of them now face huge enemies and it will be interesting to see how both of them handle it. i don't even know what i want to say lol This is exactly what I think they are going for if you listen to Dan and Dave in their inside-the-episode talks, there's a running theme they're definitely playing on in opposites but parallel for Daenerys and Jon. I am often disappointed at how shallow some people attribute this pairing as if them 'getting together' as a couple is the only outcome they can consider and therefore 'bad writing' for both the books and show if that's where it goes. In my mind, it's only short-sighted fan reaction. Take that dual image of them both naked in "rebirth" that @moiaf posted for example. The immediate reaction was "eww gross, vomit" ... and that seems very immature to me. The deeper symbolism is far more interesting if they are not just being "shipped" as a couple. Daenerys has made all of her choices with fire and blood and made mistakes. Jon has had almost no choice whatsoever in the battles of ice he has so far taken on and lost. He lost against the White Walkers at Hardhome, he lost against Mance and the Wildlings, and he even lost against his own men betraying him. Yes he chose to help the Wildlings but was it really a choice? As he told the leaders, if we don't help them they'll just become more undead anyways so there really wasn't a choice there no matter how much Thorne and the others wanted to accuse him of it. They are opposing sides of the same coin. The yin and yang that must exist in equal parts. There cannot be too much of good or bad, too much dark or light and that balance theme is far more interesting than love stories.
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Shaena
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Post by Shaena on May 18, 2016 0:02:04 GMT
Well, it is true that Jon's character is rather passive. He doesn't decide his own destiny as much as he adapts to what is laid before him. He doesn't even have a true choice of joining the NW, since it's either that or ending up fending for himself without any resources since Ned and Cat practically threw him out on the street. That doesn't change pretty much until the end ASoS/ADwD, where he makes his big decisions regarding leaving the NW and freeing Arya, by which he provokes the assassionation and subsequent resurrection, whatever that will mean for his character. (I still can't decide whether leaving his post for Arya was a "manly" or "boyish" thing to do. IMHO it could be interpreted both ways, but since since death and resurrection have been shown to have negative effect on a person, it comes across as if he is being punished for it.) His storyline in the show is good, but he really didn't have a hand in what happened to him.
Dany's story starts similarly - she is forced to go along with the marriage to Drogo - but by ACoK she has turned very proactive and she chooses her own battles.
Of course, a large part of it is that Dany has better means to act independently (dragons, bloodriders, etc.), and she's not bound by oaths and rigid rules under the threat of death the way Jon is. The moment Jon's limitations lessen (he becomes the LC) and starts picking his own battles (wildlings, Alys, Arya), he's offed. As I said, I'm not sure what to make of it.
Overall, I find it interesting because in stories like this women usually are the more passive ones and men the active ones.
(I may digress, but in ADwD Tyrions explains to Aegon that Dany is first and foremost a "rescuer" and she will come to her brother's son's aid, and while Tyrion in that scene was talking about Dany saving Aegon, I think that what GRRM truly had in mind at that moment was Dany helping Jon. Which is unusual, too; a woman "rescuing" a man. I believe they may have a sort of gender role reversal going on.)
Sorry for bringing up the books (again!), but I felt it was actually helpful in this case.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2016 0:18:18 GMT
Jons story so far has been about little victories whilst Dany has had huge victories. I guess if dany was in jon's situation and vise versa she might make some of the same choices or mistakes.
And whilst Dany embraces her fire and blood side (she knows who and what she is) jon is very confused. He thinks he is Ned's son and has been shaped that way but there is something amiss. The Starks have never had a connection to R'hllor or fire so when he finds out his true parentage i think he will find clarity.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2016 0:23:59 GMT
Jons story so far has been about little victories whilst Dany has had huge victories. I guess if dany was in jon's situation and vise versa she might make some of the same choices or mistakes. And whilst Dany embraces her fire and blood side (she knows who and what she is) jon is very confused. He thinks he is Ned's son and has been shaped that way but there is something amiss. The Starks have never had a connection to R'hllor or fire so when he finds out his true parentage i think he will find clarity. YES! I am so very much hoping the reveal of his parentage (still no clue how he himself finds out) will help Jon stop feeling like such a misfit everywhere he goes. He didn't fit in at Winterfell, he didn't fit in at The Wall ... he's been a sad sack in an existential crisis since he came back ... time for him to get his groove back. It took a long time for Daenerys to find hers again, and Sansa, and Arya, and Bran ... they're all growing up and evolving. Jon will too, soon I hope!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2016 19:37:28 GMT
I once read this Irish mythology, I can't remember the name right now, but in it a young girl with great power is exiled by the gods to a mythical island at the end of the story because she didn't belong in the modern world that Ireland was turning into. At the very end of the story when the island could be seen on certain day her children (she was exiled with her love) would be seen climbing the rock awaiting a time were they could join the world once again.
I sometimes thing that this might happen to Dany and maybe Jon. If they were to survive and that's a big IF I can see Dany going away, no longer belonging to a world without magic, which is hat Planetos might turn into after the War for dawn. But who knows, it was just a thought.
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lordimp
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Post by lordimp on May 25, 2016 16:02:39 GMT
Dany has the dothraki and Jon has the wildlings .
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 18:33:01 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 20:39:06 GMT
Does he say why he wonders if it's the only time they'll be in costume together? Meaning in promo photos or actually in the show? I mean, I'm guessing because this was written last year before Jon's resurrection - they're going for ambiguity since it's assuming Jon is dead, right? Am I missing something on that? As for those particular costumes, no I don't think we'll see Dany with Jon in his Night's Watch Blacks. Sadly as good as Kit looks in Black, his watch is now over. I do like the fact the show-runners themselves suggested the promo shot as "Ice and Fire" though so we know they got the memo early on.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2016 1:52:55 GMT
yeh thats one of my favourite photoshoots Look at how cute they are, this was just after season 1 during season 2 filming i think. The way Kit looks at Emilia is just beyond me, he's obviously in love with her plenty material for you @moiaf
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