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Post by Admin on May 4, 2015 10:45:22 GMT
It's really hard to defend this stuff, not that I think anyone would want to. Instead of waiting for Stannis to take the North in Vale he throws Sansa to Boltons, claiming that 1. he doesn't know anything about Ramsay 2. he is a betting man. It really makes no sense and the only reasoning that is convincing - albeit awful - is cogman saying that this storyline is better with Sansa than Jeyne. That's not good writing, though - choosing convenient over reasonable. I keep waiting for them to give a good reason for what LF is doing but it seems they are not gonna do that. I mean throw in anything "Sansa there are people in WF waiting to rebel against the Boltons", "Sansa you have to be in WF before Stannis arrives so he will grant you the castle", anything really, not "I'm a betting man"  |
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Post by MarcusAntonius on May 4, 2015 10:46:56 GMT
Straight up bad writing imo, makes absolutely zero sense at this point
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 11:34:25 GMT
Ok, I am not going to defend it even though I do like the added excitement it's brought by putting Sansa in the place of Jeyne Poole or some other "fake Arya" that never would have worked so well on screen. However, I will say Littlefinger's 'bet' on Stannis is actually a fairly good one. The wording they chose for his lines is badly done though - I agree. Of everyone left in the running, Stannis has the best chance of winning the North and as Littlefinger said, he'll reward the daughter of the man who supported his claim to the throne. Now for what is NOT good is justifying trotting off to King's Landing because Cersei sent a summons and leaving Sansa there with the monster family. This just makes Littlefinger look really truly stupid. He just admitted, in that same exact convo with Sansa that he already knows for certain Stannis is set to march on Winterfell so he obviously has intel or spies up there feeding him this data. The fact they've chosen to leave him completely ignorant (or uncaring) of Sansa's true danger from Ramsay just doesn't make any sense at all with the Littlefinger we know and love from the books. He takes risks, but not that sort of risk with his most prized possession. I am able to wrap my head around all the changes and the risk to Sansa but I'm unable to wrap my head around dumbing down Littlefinger's knowledge of the true danger Sansa's in there, especially without him there to chaperone.  |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 11:39:38 GMT
I'm not defending this at all but I sort of get what they are getting at. LF is a self proclaimed betting man so he's just increasing his odds by playing both sides. If Stannis wins the north, he'll reward Sansa for being the daughter of the man who supported him. However, if Stannis looses to the Bolton's LF has got Sansa in place to become the Lady of Winterfell. Either way, she'll be in a place of power in the North, or so he thinks.
Of course this doesn't take into consideration the Ramsay is a sociopath amongst other things.
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Post by Admin on May 4, 2015 11:43:21 GMT
But it just makes no sense as to why he didn't wait for Stannis to battle Boltons and act after he knows the outcome, in a safe place, in Vale
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 11:43:42 GMT
I'm still not on board with this storyline in any way shape or form, but the fanboy in me does do cartwheels at the thought of "Sansa Stark, Wardeness of the North"  Of course, now that that "plan" is out there, it obviously isn't going to happen. But yeah, I agree with Sati. I do not think it's wise at all to take her to Winterfell on the premise of "I think Stannis will win, so cross your fingers and hope for the best". It would make a hell of a lot more sense to say something like "having a Stark in Winterfell for people to rally round could weaken the Boltons wrt Stannis because they will turn on them". Who knows, maybe that is his plan. Maybe he knows Ramsay is a monster and has placed her there, knowing that if(/when) he hurts her, the Northmen loyal to House Stark would rebel and make it easier for Stannis to defeat the Boltons. I could forgive him for not mentioning that part of his plan to Sansa because, well, who would want to go along with that? |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 11:48:26 GMT
But it just makes no sense as to why he didn't wait for Stannis to battle Boltons and act after he knows the outcome, in a safe place, in Vale This is true too and I had this thought at one point in re-watching the episode. I wondered if show only watchers would piece it together and worry for Sansa's life other than the obvious danger within the castle from Ramsay. Wouldn't an all out siege on Winterfell from Stannis and his army also endanger Sansa? Is Roose just going to wave a flag from the ramparts saying "WE HAZ A STARK IN HERE DONT ATTACK!" ...  |
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Post by Admin on May 4, 2015 11:59:00 GMT
But it just makes no sense as to why he didn't wait for Stannis to battle Boltons and act after he knows the outcome, in a safe place, in Vale This is true too and I had this thought at one point in re-watching the episode. I wondered if show only watchers would piece it together and worry for Sansa's life other than the obvious danger within the castle from Ramsay. Wouldn't an all out siege on Winterfell from Stannis and his army also endanger Sansa? Is Roose just going to wave a flag from the ramparts saying "WE HAZ A STARK IN HERE DONT ATTACK!" ...  oh, that's brilliant! Yeah the thing is they could have had LF say a million things that while silly - like maybe they use you as bargaining chip to avoid bloodshed, Sansa; people of Winterfell need you Sansa; or even - there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, Sansa - at least provide some, while flimsy, reason. They went with 'I'm a betting man'  |
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Post by Paid Debt Lannister on May 4, 2015 13:14:13 GMT
In the end, it is basically because Sansa's storyline is very slow-paced in aFfC, and the Winterfell plot from aDwD would require A LOT of new casting (Jeyne, Wyman, Barbrey, plus extras) and characters to set up. So they went with this more simple route. I understand it, but it is a stupid plan. Even more stupid is Littlefinger leaving because "the brothel is in danger". And I fear Brienne will manage to sneak into Winterfell with Pod. Then the whole scenario will be a complete mess. The good thing is that all actors (the ones who play Roose, Theon and Ramsay, at least) are very good, and they will make this "more or less" material into good television. I do believe showrunners could've done better, though. At least they have done better with Arya/Tywin, for example.
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Post by King Tommen on May 4, 2015 13:18:00 GMT
I don't think the show has been very good at articulating this but LF seems to think that installing Sansa at Winterfell now is necessary because it's when the Boltons are in the most need of her and willing to make this kind of pact with such an untrustworthy ally in LF. Additionally, he seems to be saying that Stannis would have no choice but to give Sansa a piece of power if he were to liberate Winterfell while she was there. Waiting until things are "settled" might be too late on both fronts. It also lines up well with the discord in King's Landing with the Lannisters as LF would be unsure as to how long this would last. He knows for sure that right now, they're too weakened or occupied to do anything about this. That may not necessarily be the case later.
He's the kind of character that thrives on moving when things are in chaos and this is when he thinks his best shot is, not after the battle has happened and whoever wins has time to think about their actions.
I agree however, that the show should have a few more lines to make this clear. It's obviously a "things are in flux and everyone's scrambling, this is the opportune time for us to make our move"
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 13:22:40 GMT
I don't think the show has been very good at articulating this but LF seems to think that installing Sansa at Winterfell now is necessary because it's when the Boltons are in the most need of her and willing to make this kind of pact with such an untrustworthy ally in LF. Additionally, he seems to be saying that Stannis would have no choice but to give Sansa a piece of power if he were to liberate Winterfell while she was there. Waiting until things are "settled" might be too late on both fronts. It also lines up well with the discord in King's Landing with the Lannisters as LF would be unsure as to how long this would last. He knows for sure that right now, they're too weakened or occupied to do anything about this. That may not necessarily be the case later. He's the kind of character that thrives on moving when things are in chaos and this is when he thinks his best shot is, not after the battle has happened and whoever wins has time to think about their actions. I agree however, that the show should have a few more lines to make this clear. It's obviously a "things are in flux and everyone's scrambling, this is the opportune time for us to make our move" I agree that this is where LF is coming from, however, the show has been awful at getting this across to its audience. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 14:35:11 GMT
The change is exciting yes, but it makes little sense plot wise. They just wanted to put someone in the place of Jeyne and then build around that. His "master plan" to secure the North is that A) Stannis wins, he will reward Sansa and then give her the North! B) The Boltons win and you will "tame" Ramsay and rule through him. Cheers Sansa! They should have waited in the Vale, but well. This is entertaining if you don't think about it too much.
I really don't think that even showStannis would co-operate with LF. That's why if I would be LF, I would just arrive after the battle and smash the remaining host and seat Sansa in WF.
Did LF say that Sansa could "outmaneuver" Roose because she has learnt from HIM (the very best in maneuvering)? ShowLF has no chance of outmaneuvering Roose, no chance. Sansa's chances are even worse.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 14:42:16 GMT
Did LF say that Sansa could "outmaneuver" Roose because she has learnt from HIM (the very best in maneuvering)? ShowLF has no chance of outmaneuvering Roose, no chance. Sansa's chances are even worse. This. "Even the most dangerous men can be outsmarted." Yes, but what if the "dangerous man" could outsmart you in seconds? |
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Post by MarcusAntonius on May 4, 2015 14:44:20 GMT
But it just makes no sense as to why he didn't wait for Stannis to battle Boltons and act after he knows the outcome, in a safe place, in Vale They just wanted Sansa to get into Ramsays hands and didn't think about how it would logically make sense. (It doesn't at all) |
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Post by Paid Debt Lannister on May 4, 2015 14:57:14 GMT
Did LF say that Sansa could "outmaneuver" Roose because she has learnt from HIM (the very best in maneuvering)? ShowLF has no chance of outmaneuvering Roose, no chance. Sansa's chances are even worse. Apparently show Littlefinger is the biggest genius on Earth. He could outmaneuver Roose, Stannis, Olenna, and probably Moonboy for all I know. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 15:18:57 GMT
Actor Aidan Gillen discusses Littlefinger's “most audacious play yet." itsh.bo/1OTOTo8#GoTSeason5 /photo/1 |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 18:58:52 GMT
The change is exciting yes, but it makes little sense plot wise. They just wanted to put someone in the place of Jeyne and then build around that. His "master plan" to secure the North is that A) Stannis wins, he will reward Sansa and then give her the North! B) The Boltons win and you will "tame" Ramsay and rule through him. Cheers Sansa! They should have waited in the Vale, but well. This is entertaining if you don't think about it too much. I really don't think that even showStannis would co-operate with LF. That's why if I would be LF, I would just arrive after the battle and smash the remaining host and seat Sansa in WF. Did LF say that Sansa could "outmaneuver" Roose because she has learnt from HIM (the very best in maneuvering)? ShowLF has no chance of outmaneuvering Roose, no chance. Sansa's chances are even worse. Well said! Makes absolutely no sense to me; neither do I understand what Cersei's message (would you believe I almost wrote Cersei's "email"? ) could have possibly said that caused LF to rush off to KL. Would be so much fun if she discovered that LF did, after all, engineer the plan for QOT to murder Joff, but I think not. And it can't be to a call to come save his brothels since she's already co-plotted with the FaMi in that regard. I have no idea what part, if any, LF has to play in TWOW and beyond, but I do wonder what will happen to him between now and the end of Season 5. Like you, I wouldn't bet on him where either Stannis or Roose is concerned, and he's already garnered about 0% of Roose's trust. Lastly, it seems completely OOC to me for LF to be unaware of the true danger posed by the Boltons, particularly Ramsay. I guess this does set the stage, though, for Reek to transform back into Theon and rescue Sansa - ? |
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Of course, now that that "plan" is out there, it obviously isn't going to happen.
oh, that's brilliant!
