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Post by TheMadQueen on Sept 30, 2017 23:40:16 GMT
Not to trigger Stoney (that's my new nickname for stoneheartsrevenge) but I honestly don't get what was so awful about the Winterfell storyline.
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on Oct 1, 2017 0:43:16 GMT
Everything was just so forced. Littlefinger hanging around even after creepy Branhattan spouting his lines back at him and realising neither Sansa or Arya cared for him at all. Littlefinger having no plan. The conflict between Arya and Sansa (uneasiness I could buy, but not 'I'm a cut off your face now Sansa okay?') was painfully forced and unnatural. The Northern Lords being presented at once as both fickle flip-floppers who jump onto whoever happens to sit at the head of the hall but also staunch loyalists to the KitN. The build up to Littlefinger's trial which was A whole lot of forced conflict between the Stark sisters so the writers could go "PSYCHE! Actually they tag teamed Littlefinger! So SHOCKING right?"
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Post by DaveyJoe on Oct 1, 2017 1:01:19 GMT
#JustyceForPetyr
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Post by TheMadQueen on Oct 1, 2017 1:02:50 GMT
Everything was just so forced. Littlefinger hanging around even after creepy Branhattan spouting his lines back at him and realising neither Sansa or Arya cared for him at all. Littlefinger having no plan. The conflict between Arya and Sansa (uneasiness I could buy, but not 'I'm a cut off your face now Sansa okay?') was painfully forced and unnatural. The Northern Lords being presented at once as both fickle flip-floppers who jump onto whoever happens to sit at the head of the hall but also staunch loyalists to the KitN. The build up to Littlefinger's trial which was A whole lot of forced conflict between the Stark sisters so the writers could go "PSYCHE! Actually they tag teamed Littlefinger! So SHOCKING right?" Littlefinger was overconfident, I think. Jon was gone, Sansa was still sort of listening. Some creepy kid with some weird visions from beyond the wall doesn't scare petyr "motherfucker" baelish. Also, I think saying Sansa didn't care for him was a stretch. She gave him attitude, yes, but she still was with him quite a bit. 703 comes to mind. Littlefinger never really has a plan. He creates chaos. That's his thing. He has an end goal (the Iron Throne and Sansa by his side) but he's really up for whatever in the mean time. He didn't know what was gonna happen when he killed Jon Arryn, he just did it to stir the pot. He didn't know exactly what would happen when he betrayed Ned, he just did it to ramp up the conflict. So here, he was just exploiting the Stark girls' preexisting beef with each other and letting them fight it out to destabilize the family. I don't think the conflict between sansa and Arya was forced. These are two girls who haven't liked each other since day one. Last time Arya saw Sansa, she was standing on a stage next to the people who cut their fathers head off. She thought Sansa was a little too chummy with the Lannisters since day one, and the letter confirmed her suspicions. Meanwhile, Sansa assumed Arya was dead, and then later finds out she's a shape-shifting assassin who still has a grudge against her. That's enough to get someone shook. After everything that has happened to Sansa, she doesn't really trust anyone, especially sulky assassins who she basically doesn't know. Even if they have the same last name. The Northern Lords are just annoying, squabbling old men. Even calling them "characters" is generous, they were just background noise, just an audience for Jon to give his speeches to. While the scene of Littlefinger's execution was near perfect to me, I completely agree that they should have shown Bran divulging all of the Littlefinger tea to Sansa. But hey, people talk off screen. Whatevs. So yeah that's my opinion pls don't yell @ me
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Post by DaveyJoe on Oct 1, 2017 1:30:34 GMT
I agree that Littlefinger sows chaos and understands the best ways to manipulate the situation to his advantage. But they dumbed him down to never before seen levels to keep him in Winterfell after incredibly ominous interactions, specifically when Bran repeats a motto he should never have known under practical circumstances.
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Post by DaveyJoe on Oct 1, 2017 1:44:30 GMT
#JustyceForPetyr
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Post by TheMadQueen on Oct 1, 2017 1:57:33 GMT
Petyr said he only does something if he thinks it will help him get Sansa and the Iron Throne. Staying in Winterfell, exploiting the power struggle left in Jon's absence, could help him in that regard. End of story. He's no mystic, creepy little kids don't faze him.
He's always had an ego. He thinks he's untouchable. For the most part he's right, but not always. Remember that time he tried to be slick and mouth off to Cersei, and she pulled a knife on him? He tried to be slick and sweet talk Catelyn and she also coincidentally pulled a knife on him. He tried to talk his way out of trouble with the Lords of the Vale and it didn't work. He antagonized Yohn Royce just for the LOLs. He had the balls to say Jon owed him a thank you, and got choke slammed for it.
He has consistently shown to be quite confident in himself, perhaps to the point where he gets himself in over his head.
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Post by DaveyJoe on Oct 1, 2017 2:08:46 GMT
Gurl, I'? Drunk so I gonna let it go ubtil a better time
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Post by DaveyJoe on Oct 1, 2017 2:09:12 GMT
#JustyceForPetyr
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on Oct 1, 2017 10:14:46 GMT
Everything was just so forced. Littlefinger hanging around even after creepy Branhattan spouting his lines back at him and realising neither Sansa or Arya cared for him at all. Littlefinger having no plan. The conflict between Arya and Sansa (uneasiness I could buy, but not 'I'm a cut off your face now Sansa okay?') was painfully forced and unnatural. The Northern Lords being presented at once as both fickle flip-floppers who jump onto whoever happens to sit at the head of the hall but also staunch loyalists to the KitN. The build up to Littlefinger's trial which was A whole lot of forced conflict between the Stark sisters so the writers could go "PSYCHE! Actually they tag teamed Littlefinger! So SHOCKING right?" Littlefinger was overconfident, I think. Jon was gone, Sansa was still sort of listening. Some creepy kid with some weird visions from beyond the wall doesn't scare petyr "motherfucker" baelish. Also, I think saying Sansa didn't care for him was a stretch. She gave him attitude, yes, but she still was with him quite a bit. 703 comes to mind. Littlefinger never really has a plan. He creates chaos. That's his thing. He has an end goal (the Iron Throne and Sansa by his side) but he's really up for whatever in the mean time. He didn't know what was gonna happen when he killed Jon Arryn, he just did it to stir the pot. He didn't know exactly what would happen when he betrayed Ned, he just did it to ramp up the conflict. So here, he was just exploiting the Stark girls' preexisting beef with each other and letting them fight it out to destabilize the family. I don't think the conflict between sansa and Arya was forced. These are two girls who haven't liked each other since day one. Last time Arya saw Sansa, she was standing on a stage next to the people who cut their fathers head off. She thought Sansa was a little too chummy with the Lannisters since day one, and the letter confirmed her suspicions. Meanwhile, Sansa assumed Arya was dead, and then later finds out she's a shape-shifting assassin who still has a grudge against her. That's enough to get someone shook. After everything that has happened to Sansa, she doesn't really trust anyone, especially sulky assassins who she basically doesn't know. Even if they have the same last name. The Northern Lords are just annoying, squabbling old men. Even calling them "characters" is generous, they were just background noise, just an audience for Jon to give his speeches to. While the scene of Littlefinger's execution was near perfect to me, I completely agree that they should have shown Bran divulging all of the Littlefinger tea to Sansa. But hey, people talk off screen. Whatevs. So yeah that's my opinion pls don't yell @ me The Winterfell problems started before season 7 if, as you say, Littlefinger's goal is Sansa by his side on the Iron Throne. Because, you know, Ramsay. Being completely at the Lords of the Vale's mercy after he pushed Lysa (I.e. Had no plans to defend himself). That kind of thing.... but back to season 7, Littlefinger might be pretty confident in his own abilities but it requires dumbing him down significantly to get him to the point where he can't realise that there is nothing fruitful going to come out of Winterfell for him so he ought to cut and run. i'm assuming you don't have siblings if you think Arya and Sansa hated each other. I have a brother and our relationship is comparable, insofar as it can be because of the different contexts. We bicker, we fight, we are pretty much polar opposites of one another, and at times we have said things we don't mean. But we don't hate one another. And I don't think anything really shwos Arya and Sansa hate one another either, they have a pretty started rival sibling relationship. That doesn't usually involve telling someone you'll cut off their face. (Arya's bag of faces was another wtf is this shit moment by the way but I'll let it slide). The Northern Lords might just be bit/side characters but they still need some kind of coherency. Are they actually Stark loyalists as stated or are they wishy washy sellouts as shown? I have no idea, though admittedly they raised good points about Jon's shittiness as KitN, though I suspect that will all be brushed aside and never mentioned again. LF's execution looked cool and was well shot with a good atmosphere. But on closer examination it was pretty poorly written. First I've said it before so I think we just have to agree to disagree here, but having the entire revelation happen off-screen with not a hint that they were changing takes was terrible writing done entirely for SHOCK purposes. Good writing would build up to this showing subtle hints that all was not quite as it seemed (culminating in the deleted Bran scene mentioned before). Second, as Davey says, everyone just suddenly takes Bran's word for stuff because he's the 3ER whatever that means. Then we have Peter being accused of Lysa Arryn's murder which he has already been tried for by the Lords of the Vale and which Sansa herself defended him from. Yet suddenly he's on trial again for that and nobody bats an eyelid or says "But m'Lady didn't you protect him against these charges in the past?" And in terms of characters, Arya really annoyed me because her entire arc in S6 culminate during in her deciding she could not be stone-cold "No-One" because she was a Stark and then she spends this season being stone-cold and murder-y and alienating her family. *sigh*
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Post by Father of Dragons on Oct 1, 2017 11:30:04 GMT
Criticising S7 in a nutshell: TMQ: Stoney:
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Post by TheMadQueen on Oct 1, 2017 18:21:12 GMT
Littlefinger was overconfident, I think. Jon was gone, Sansa was still sort of listening. Some creepy kid with some weird visions from beyond the wall doesn't scare petyr "motherfucker" baelish. Also, I think saying Sansa didn't care for him was a stretch. She gave him attitude, yes, but she still was with him quite a bit. 703 comes to mind. Littlefinger never really has a plan. He creates chaos. That's his thing. He has an end goal (the Iron Throne and Sansa by his side) but he's really up for whatever in the mean time. He didn't know what was gonna happen when he killed Jon Arryn, he just did it to stir the pot. He didn't know exactly what would happen when he betrayed Ned, he just did it to ramp up the conflict. So here, he was just exploiting the Stark girls' preexisting beef with each other and letting them fight it out to destabilize the family. I don't think the conflict between sansa and Arya was forced. These are two girls who haven't liked each other since day one. Last time Arya saw Sansa, she was standing on a stage next to the people who cut their fathers head off. She thought Sansa was a little too chummy with the Lannisters since day one, and the letter confirmed her suspicions. Meanwhile, Sansa assumed Arya was dead, and then later finds out she's a shape-shifting assassin who still has a grudge against her. That's enough to get someone shook. After everything that has happened to Sansa, she doesn't really trust anyone, especially sulky assassins who she basically doesn't know. Even if they have the same last name. The Northern Lords are just annoying, squabbling old men. Even calling them "characters" is generous, they were just background noise, just an audience for Jon to give his speeches to. While the scene of Littlefinger's execution was near perfect to me, I completely agree that they should have shown Bran divulging all of the Littlefinger tea to Sansa. But hey, people talk off screen. Whatevs. So yeah that's my opinion pls don't yell @ me The Winterfell problems started before season 7 if, as you say, Littlefinger's goal is Sansa by his side on the Iron Throne. Because, you know, Ramsay. Being completely at the Lords of the Vale's mercy after he pushed Lysa (I.e. Had no plans to defend himself). That kind of thing.... but back to season 7, Littlefinger might be pretty confident in his own abilities but it requires dumbing him down significantly to get him to the point where he can't realise that there is nothing fruitful going to come out of Winterfell for him so he ought to cut and run. i'm assuming you don't have siblings if you think Arya and Sansa hated each other. I have a brother and our relationship is comparable, insofar as it can be because of the different contexts. We bicker, we fight, we are pretty much polar opposites of one another, and at times we have said things we don't mean. But we don't hate one another. And I don't think anything really shwos Arya and Sansa hate one another either, they have a pretty started rival sibling relationship. That doesn't usually involve telling someone you'll cut off their face. (Arya's bag of faces was another wtf is this shit moment by the way but I'll let it slide). The Northern Lords might just be bit/side characters but they still need some kind of coherency. Are they actually Stark loyalists as stated or are they wishy washy sellouts as shown? I have no idea, though admittedly they raised good points about Jon's shittiness as KitN, though I suspect that will all be brushed aside and never mentioned again. LF's execution looked cool and was well shot with a good atmosphere. But on closer examination it was pretty poorly written. First I've said it before so I think we just have to agree to disagree here, but having the entire revelation happen off-screen with not a hint that they were changing takes was terrible writing done entirely for SHOCK purposes. Good writing would build up to this showing subtle hints that all was not quite as it seemed (culminating in the deleted Bran scene mentioned before). Second, as Davey says, everyone just suddenly takes Bran's word for stuff because he's the 3ER whatever that means. Then we have Peter being accused of Lysa Arryn's murder which he has already been tried for by the Lords of the Vale and which Sansa herself defended him from. Yet suddenly he's on trial again for that and nobody bats an eyelid or says "But m'Lady didn't you protect him against these charges in the past?" And in terms of characters, Arya really annoyed me because her entire arc in S6 culminate during in her deciding she could not be stone-cold "No-One" because she was a Stark and then she spends this season being stone-cold and murder-y and alienating her family. *sigh* I do agree with a lot of this. It wasn't great and it made Arya look like a douche but whatever. I do have a sister btw, but I don't think I said Sansa and Arya hate each other. I said they didn't trust each other. Either way, clink clink to friendly debate boiiiiiii
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Post by TheMadQueen on Oct 1, 2017 18:22:02 GMT
Also I think that Arya will like Daenerys right away but Sansa will be wary of her, at least at first.
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Post by DaveyJoe on Oct 1, 2017 18:59:16 GMT
I think Littlefinger's lust for Sansa may very well lead to his downfall in the books, but in the show it's very hard for me to reconcile that with the fact that he served her up to the Boltons. Now I didn't mind the changes in season 5 and I could understand why Show Petyr did what he did to lure the Boltons away from the Lannisters. But wanting to stay by her side despite the obvious warning signs doesn't make sense to me. In the show Petyr has always made moves that serve his best interests, and being blinded by love is a character trait that never defined him until season 7. I think show changes are starting to have ripple effects on the end game not making sense, this is the biggest example so far.
To be clear, I don't think fiction necessarily has a right or wrong, we all interpret these things in different ways. If this storyline worked for you, I respect that. It just didn't for me, and to be fair, my love of Aidan Gillen's performance causes me to hate the way they wrote him in season 7. I bet most viewers were simply satisfied to see him get his. I'm really curious how things will play out in the book, Littlefinger is a rich character and I'm sure things will make more sense with George's writing. I'm also very curious about Ramsay in the books, no way Sansa takes him out in a revenge porn scene, she'll probably never even meet Ramsay in the book. I thought that scene was terrible in the show for turning such a horribly violent act into a crowd pleasing fist-pumping moment.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2017 21:13:30 GMT
I think the books will be similar, in that Jon will head south with the Wildlings and pick up some northern lords. It will look like they will be defeated and then Littlefinger and Sansa will arrive with the Vale army. The tensions for their storylines might involve harry the heir-sansa-littlefinger as a triad instead of Arya. But i think someone will help Sansa to see that littlefinger must be brought to justice. I think Ramsay will be executed by Jon in the Ned Stark style, I also didn't think killing Ramsay with his dogs was in-character for Sansa but she was in a dark place after being sexually abused by him, this won't happen in the books. No idea how Rickon will be involved but i assume that's how Jon and Davos get together, when they meet at Winterfell. I think George has a different idea for Rickon, and it's not death on a field (i'm hoping).
Littlefinger's intentions in the books are hard to grasp- he claims he cares about Sansa but i really just think he wants a sidekick and a look-a-like Catelyn to claim victory over since he never got the real Catelyn. He clearly has a plan though- he wants Sansa to marry Harry the Heir, kill sweetrobin and then have control of the Vale through Sansa. He is more of a puppeteer in the books than they portray him on the show. So he really is using Sansa just like he did on the show, except it never made sense for him to give Ramsay (a psychopath) the real Sansa and that's where the show went wrong. It was obvious after that point that Sansa would never trust him again, and littlefinger is all about gaining trust from people to manipulate them.
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on Oct 1, 2017 22:20:12 GMT
People praising the Winterfell storyline triggers me guys, sorry for the rants. You have no idea how hard I wanted to throw my phone when I read Davey saying he enjoys Aiden Gillen's performance Triggers, triggers everywhere!
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Post by DaveyJoe on Oct 1, 2017 22:55:35 GMT
It's entertaining.
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on Oct 1, 2017 23:07:04 GMT
To be fair I rewatched some season scenes stuff lately and realised how much more distracting the weird accent choices were in earlier seasons than now. It's a weird accent choice but it's mostly consistent now. Who knows what he or the directors were thinking in the early years
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Post by DaveyJoe on Oct 1, 2017 23:26:36 GMT
I just don't know why you were surprised I've explained why I love his performance a few times in the past and I'm rocking a Littlefinger avatar.
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Post by TheMadQueen on Oct 2, 2017 1:02:00 GMT
Just read a "theory" that Euron will kill Cersei in 801 because he's much more "worthy" of being an endgame villain than her.
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